| Archive for uknhcp.myfastforum.org Natural hoof care resource forums for all those interested in barefoot horses |
| cracky |
'Blue tongue' Dressage Facebook group.I hope I'm not making another faux pas putting this up for information. Apologies if it isn't appropriate but this campaign is gaining momentum and if we all join hopefully we cannot be ignored anymore.Here's a link to a Facebook Group started by Heather Moffett to publisize the practice of hyperflexion. Watch the epona video and make your own minds up. http://www.facebook.com/group.php...81093975134&v=info&ref=nf |
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| cracky |
Petition is now up. http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/antiHF/index.html | ||
| vickyclink |
on the case already! | ||
| dorisday |
Ditto - my hand was over my face in shock. How in gods name can this be allowed????? | ||
| cracky |
F.E.I are sending out standard letters now, just got mine. They are taking the complaints very seriously and are implemeting a full investigation which will be published... we'll see!
Why have I got all those Facebook followers on my posts? 
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| Pam K |
Signed. I just continue to despair over how people think they can produce correct work using brute force, with no thought to the pain they are inflicting on their poor horses  No wonder so many dressage horses break down before they reach their teens!
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| stormybracken |
Signed. Collection is as much to do with the mind as the body. Rollkur does not address either the collection of the mind or the collection of the body, for either horse or rider. | ||
| brucea |
ditto.
Sadly, this is indicative of an attitude to the horse that says "what I want is more important than your mental or physical wellbeing" and as soon as that point is reached, abuse becomes habitual behaviour for that person. |
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| SueH |
signed. I've seen a cowboy get collection using a rope halter and loose reins - there is simply NO need. | ||
| vickyclink |
well said Bruce, and it seems an easy line for humans to cross without even questioning it! |
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| hobnob |
Really upsetting. Horses do not deserve this treatment
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| babyjay |
Definately signed!! 
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| Julie |
Someone I know has been asked if she would like to become a steward for British dressage competitions. She hadn't been to the meeting yet so didn't know all the details. However, the BD representative who phoned her said they need trained stewards on duty to help "clean up" dressage of the "abuse" that takes place. I wonder if BD classes hyperflexion as abuse. I only compete at the lower levels, but I've worked in along side hyperflexed horses a couple of times, and horses with red foam coming from their mouths! | ||
| horsesfirst |
There was a photo in the paper yesterday of P Harry on a polo pony with a bleeding mouth. That sort of thing should be stopped too. 
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| JulianSteve |
Signed! | ||
| Chris Thompson |
Any western horse will do this for you - even my stallion does it when he is being ridden western Signed BTW |
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| horsesfirst |
Personal bug bear - please let's not slip into a discussion of one discipline v another. Every 'discipline' has it's good points and bad points largely determined by the skill and attitude of the rider. Every discipline has its share of great riders and its share of thugs. Unfortunately.
Slight diversion - used to have a highly skilled agility dog. Totally brilliant and qualified himself for olympia. My only real role was to drive to the venue and point out the jump numbers  But I had to call a halt because I couldn't bear the cruelty inflicted by some people on their dogs just to win a rosette. (obedience classes were even worse)
So I think the point is - some people will do horrible things to animals (and lets face it other people) regardless - if they think it will somehow enhance their status and it has nothing to do with type of animal or the sport and everything to do with some people being truly horrible. I have yet to figure out why thugs are thugs. I've known more than my share and for me the nature v. nurture debate rages - as does the question of how to deal with them. Unfortunately my preferred methods are generally unprintable
We should make every effort to stop cruelty in all its forms. |
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| cracky |
Epona TV have now put up a 10 minute uncut clip of Watermill obviously in response to Kittel's reply on barnmice yesterday.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo8W2fUjdM4 ...and breathe! and link to the interview. http://www.barnmice.com/profiles/blogs/patrik-kittel-interview |
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| dorisday |
Cracky, is it awful to watch cos I don't think I can bear to watch it . . . | ||
| cracky |
Yes it's horrid imo. I forced myself to watch it... many have only watched a few seconds.
The really incongruous thing for me is the thick padded bandaging on Watermill's legs while his very sensitive mouth,tongue and neck are subjected to those forces. |
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| dorisday |
Thanks for the warning. Don't think I can do it. Yesterday's vid ruined my day and even this morning while I was doing my crew, my pone yawned and I saw this lovely healthy pink tongue and that awful image flooded back . . . still can't stop thinking about it. I went and donated £10 of husband's money to the Brooke and felt a bit better, until husband called me to ask if I'd spent his money cos he was about to report the payment to the fraud team. I told him why then emailed him the link to that awful video and he emailed me back to say he was almost in tears himself and he'd signed the petition. And he's really not that horsey . . . | ||
| brucea |
Horrid.
Have to ask how the horse actually breathes - does not the unnatural head angle obstruct thier windpipe. I would imagine the horse might get hypoxic? Wouldn't that be dangerous? |
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| Julie |
The unedited video is 10 mins long, but that clearly was only a small part of that session - I wonder how long that horse was forced into that position for. It must have been in pain. It reminds me of stress positions used by the military as a form of torture. They force a person to hold a position which at first feels ok, but after 20 mins is shear agony. | ||
| cracky |
Yes Epona TV state that the session was at least 2 hours long.
To me there are just so many things wrong on so many levels, in fact I don't see anything nice or right in the vid. There is an article to go with it on the facebook group. The article has been up dated/changed for this one. http://epona.tv/uk/news/show/artikel/blue-tongue-video-faq/ Another horrid vid showing the disregard of FEI rules. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urhi0eVzQTo&feature=player_embedded |
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| Julie |
Its absolutely shocking. It should be a rule that the noseband is fastened to allow 2 fingers to fit under it - as we were all taught, but some how everyone has forgotten. If it was against the rules to tightly strap the horses mouth shut, it would be able to show its pain clearly and the judges would'nt be able to ignore it. | ||
| SueH |
I dont think anyone would disagree with this. Interestingly, the cowboy who showed us loose rein collection was not teaching western riding at the time, he was teaching about pressure and release and posture - just good training methods......and he was quoting Oliveira. |
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| Pam K |
I'm glad that something finally seems to be happening to try to put a stop to this abuse. People like Heather Moffett and Sylvia Loch have been speaking out about these methods for years, and demonstrating how to ride correctly, without force. It's always a joy to watch classically trained riders, so different from most of the modern competition dressage riders. | ||
| cracky |
BHS act!!! Patrick Print has written to Princess Haya at FEI!!! See letter in information section (left hand column) of facebook group page.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php...81093975134&v=wall&ref=nf Three cheers for BHS I say!!! Here's a link to Sylvia Loch's site with her letter. http://www.classicalriding.co.uk/...sk=view&id=278&Itemid=289 |
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| brucea |
Sadly - if the FEI ban this in warm up areas and training events - it will probably still be carried out in the privacy of closed schools with no spectators.  
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| stormybracken |
Finally the BHS have acted in a way I can support. Having been a member for **years and worked my way through part of the exam system I gave up on them when their teaching and horse management/ care methods become irrelevant to me and my horses.
Brucea's right about the move to abolish this system in public still going on behind closed doors, but it is a start to spreading the message that collection is mind first body second. Both dressage and show jumping competitions have been suffering from lack of audience numbers, I think eventing is still OK?, and maybe by publicising this one incident so widely it will strike a note with the "officials" of other competitions about common practices in their areas. |
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| becnreps |
Although, if the FEI ban this kind of training and the message could also get to dressage judges then these kind of people would not even be getting placed in the competitions, let alone winning. All the people that work their horses 'correctly' and fairly would do better, thus forcing people into training their horses in a better way? (Dont know if that makes any sense...!) I watched the video and I nearly cried for all those poor horses. I really dont make any wonder that they only have a very short career span.
When I was watching the video, how can horses that are so clearly on the forehand do this well in dressage competitions?! They are so tense, stiff and obviously in some kind of pain! I thought dressage was all about 'free', 'easy' and 'fluid' type movement?! |
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| brucea |
I was watching a lesson at our yard this morning as I was cleaning the paddock and it was quite interesting to see.
There is a real obsession with having horses heads tucked in on an "outline" and it seems almost to be obsessive- never mind the horse is hollow and obviously uncomfortable, can't use its shoulders properly, or use the head and neck for balance (like it was actually designed for!) - and being forced into a riding position that no horse would naturally carry itself in. No release either if the horse gives in - the position is just held. It is at all levels of dressage - until the recognition that there is a "natural" and an "unnatural" way for horses to move and that the "natural" one causes far less long term health and welfare concerns - things won't improve - and that has to start at the elite levels to set the example. I'm no dressage expert - but I don't think that you can possibly have a natural weight bearing shape and forward going attitude if the rider is holding onto the mouth like a rabid 60Kg terrier! |
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| becnreps |
I'm no expert either but you're right. There can be no 'lightness' either. With Repsol, I've spent a year working on him. We still dont have a proper 'outline' (could be due to other things but who knows!) BUT what I do is encourage rather than force. A young girl (who learns from mainly watching her mother) said to me the other day: "No, you're doing it wrong! You're not supposed to let go a bit when they do it (outline), you've got to hold them there!" And you're right Bruce in that everyone is 'obsessed' with the head being in an "outline". Doesn't matter what the rest of the body is doing, just as long as the head is down!
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| cracky |
Director of Communications at FEI Richard Johnson has responded on facebook group. | ||
| cracky |
A link put up on the facebook group which I think (what I can fully undrstand that is!) very interesting and as well as the harmful effects both metally and physically of hyperflexion it also has a strong message that it is actually pointless as a training/exercise tool!!!
http://scienceofmotion.com/documents/hyper-flexion.html |
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| SueH |
there's simply no need to hold anything of the horse in place including the head - just tell him to put it there and then leave him alone until he stops and then tell him again.Its called schooling : and he shouldnt have it there independently of engaging his belly to lift his back, asking him to get off his shoulders, and getting those hocks working.etc etc. the WHOLE horse approach...just like barefoot 
I'm happy to have 'contact' or 'feel' but not holding or carrying them in place - even out of sheer practicality: who's the strongest out of me and my horse - YUP Jake! he can hold his own bloody head thank you ! |
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| SueH |
interesting questions being asked now - on the wider question of "what' in it for the horse ?"
http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2009/07/133.shtml |
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| brucea |
This is a great article. Challenges so much of the current accepted practice of sporting horsemanship.
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| SueH |
Apparently there is big conference etc. and you can access the reports - they dont make for light or pleasant reading in many cases. | ||