Just wondering if anyone has any ideas to help my horse. Ruby is a TB mare, aged approx 16 years. I’ve owned her for 2 years and she was shod for the first year – this was very traumatic for both of us. The first time she was shod when I wasn’t there, she refused to go in the yard where she was shod for over 2 months after the incident. We managed to get shoes on her, but only stood on a arena surface (I think partly because she didn’t like enclosed spaces and partly because of the soft surface), also I had to keep physically distracting her, to keep her attention – otherwise her eyes would glaze over and she would be almost unresponsive and then suddenly fly into a panic. Eventually she did get better to shoe, with a very understanding farrier – but only on her front feet. Her feet had always been flared, she had thin soles and was always very lame if she lost a shoe. During this time I managed to ride her a little, but she never felt truly comfortable – I am sure this was at least partly related to her feet.
In August last year, we took her front shoes off and she has since been trimmed by a UKNHCP trimmer. She was very sore on her feet for a long time after her shoes were removed and has been lame for more of the past year than she has been sound. I have never managed to keep her sound/without pulses on more than 2-3 hours of grass (even with a muzzle or on almost bare fields.). At the beginning of October she was looking really well – she was starting to build some top line and lose a lot of the muscle tension she had. Around this time, I took her off the grass (as it was being fertilised) and she was turned out in a concrete yard for 5-6 hours per day with hay and a friend. Her feet were the best they’ve ever been – she was trotting across the concrete to meet her friend looking 100% sound and working really well barefoot on soft surfaces. At the end of October she started with strong pulses in her feet, they were also very warm (compared to her normal hoof temp) and has not been sound since (lame in trot/stiff in walk on soft surfaces with boots with leather and normal pads in the bottom, unable to walk across smooth concrete barefoot). Her feet have now returned back to their normal temperature but she still has pulses in her feet, although they do not feel as strong as they did.
She is fed on hay (cut from field containing some rye grass but mainly a mixture of meadow hay) and minimal amounts of fibrebeet – enough to get supplements into her. She hasn’t had any grass for at least 10 days before this started and the only thing I have changed is to cut back her feed and try some L94 liver detox – this doesn’t seem to be helping much. I have orderd some Remount, yeah-sacc and gastri-soothe to see if these will help her but they haven’t arrived yet. She is currently out in concrete yard for a few hours per day with boots and pads, spending the rest of the day stabled.
Unfortunately, we will lose the concrete area soon as its used by the farm to keep pigs in and my only options will be complete box rest or grass. I’m really not sure what to do for the best at the moment, she was so traumatized by shoeing I don’t want to go back to it and the only farrier I trust is 4 hours drive away (and I don’t have any transport). I’m not sure that shoes would fix anything (other than make the rest of the yard happy they can’t see Ruby struggling). However, I’m wondering whether it’s ethical to keep a horse (a) in a stable most/all of the time and (b) when she is also lame for the majority of the time. I do not have my own land and work long hours, so I need to rely on a livery yard to look after Ruby. Unfortunately because she can be difficult to handle, needs boots to walk over stoney surfaces (even at her best) and has specific dietary requirements I am very limited to where I can keep her and I’ve been around all the local yards I know of so moving her isn’t really an option.
Sorry for the long essay. If anyone has any suggestions I would be really grateful to hear them.
Sophie
horsesfirst
Sooph - sorry to hear about your difficulties.
Most people on this forum would probably support the view that each horse is an individual - so one horse's ideal is another's poison (although there are some common themes). This being the case you probably need support from a knowledgeable barefooter in a more face to face scenario.
However as we all learn something from everyone elses experiences please could you provide a bit more info?
Q - What is your trimmer's advice/perspective?
Q - Did the hay change (maybe this year's cut introduced) in October?
Q - Has the hay been analysed
Q - Who mixes and gives your horse's feeds?
Q - Precisely what minerals are you feeding?
Now a bit of reflection on some of the issues we have had with little QH. She is very sensitive, but we had the situation controlled and she was good on most surfaces. Then lots of stuff went horribly wrong. We ended up with a skinny, sore, purple footed, dull coated, stressed horse very quickly.
Her owner keeps her at livery. We found out that the YM was 'helpfully' supplementing her feed with all sorts of inappropriate things. This took a long time to iron out. But horse kept getting thinner, even though feet improved. Then YM left and horse miraculously got fat very quickly. I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions on that.
Yann
Crikey, you are in a bind there I'd personally be looking to do everything I could to make her more comfortable and give her some quality of life, whatever that meant I had to do. What does your trimmer advise?
Nic
Sounds like you are doing your best in a very difficult situation.
Worth, as others have said, just checking whether that she is actually receiving what you think she is.
The other aspect that you might want to talk to your vet about is insulin resistance, as this is an increasing problem and can result in "inexplicable" bouts of laminitis, which are often seasonal (particularly end of Oct/March as daylight changes).
There is a blood test which your vet can do, and there are various treatments available, although none which are effective in every horse.
N
brucea
Quote:
At the end of October she started with strong pulses in her feet, they were also very warm (compared to her normal hoof temp)
The elusive "hormonal" thing again maybe?
Only reason I mention it is that even off grass, in pea gravel, October/November is a danger time for little chap. Likewise march/April. Folks attribute issues o the autumn flush - but why would it then affect horses not on grass?
Nic
Quote:
The elusive "hormonal" thing again maybe?
Bruce, yes, its because cortisol levels rise at these times and horses with metabolic problems can be at risk as a result.
N
SueH
aah sorry to hear of this
quick question - what has changed - you mention cut back on feed - why? is she a fatty ? otherwise same questions as others.
to me sounds to me like you are doing the best you can in difficult situtation. your mare sounds like TB clay who is 17 and I have on loan - was clearly not comfortable in shoes but "feet" so crap uncomfortable without .....I've put "feet" in inverted commas as i really mean diet and whole health. Clay is stress bucket worrier, very "straight" - does same thing as yours: glazes over and then fupps off into canter in massive flight response. He has improved with time on minimal grass, adlib hay, haylage and lots of feed.
clay is claustraphobic to stabling to eliminate grass wont work as stress levels fupp up feet too. He had terribly flat feet when he arrived: traditional winter diet of cereal for 'poor doer' + stabling was culprit, followed by grass only summer diet (which was less damaging in terms of resultant flare).
Dare I suggest looking for alternative accomodation where there is some 'poor' muddy pasture to turn her out on....aaah I know its a horrid thought sometimes - I also know what its like to work and try and fit all this stuff in and so my heart goes out to you.
Sooph
Thanks for your support, its really appreciated at the moment.
In answer to your questions:
- hay is all the same batch of this years hay, cut off the farm's fields.
- I reduced her feed (stopped HI-Fi lite and decreased fibre-beet increase the laminitis was sugar related from her diet)
- I haven't had the hay analysed - is there anywhere you reccomend to get this done?
- the yard owner soaks fibrebeet in the morning and gives breakfast, I do dinner every night. I trust the owner and believe Ruby is getting what I ask for. I had her on a yard previously, where she lost a lot of weight and I do not believe she was feed her supplements (the YM promised me she was feeding the horse everything I asked and claimed there was something wrong with Ruby's insides)- I moved her because of this in August this year, and on exactly the same regime she has put on weight and her feet had improved on the new yard.
I've discussed it with my trimmer and we've done pretty much everything we can think of - they have even suggested that I consider shoes in the past as Ruby is so difficult to manage barefoot. Other thoughts discussed with trimmer were to put a post on this forum to see if any other ideas, and also as stated below.
My thoughts (and also trimmers) are:
1) Possibly hormone related as she has been out with mare with hormone issues. All mares on the yard have been coming into season through autumn and we think it is due to this other mare.
2) Delayed worming response - Ruby had high worm count, advised by intelligent worming to worm monthly for 6 months - I have refused to do this and reduced to 6 weekly. Last wormed on 5th October - went through usual sore kidneys 1 week post worming, then sore liver and footy for a week - resolved as usual 2 weeks post worming. Now due for worming again but not sure I'm brave enough to do it at the moment.
3) Possible change in her metabolism from starved horse to normal horse - underweight most of this year, as not fed properly on previous yard. I wonder whether once she had returned to a healthy weight, the way her body handled sugars changed?
4) Related to the time of year - same thing happened last year, but about a month earlier. Although she seemed to recover more quickly and there were more variable factors - out on grass, moved yards, changed feed etc so hard to narrow down. I have noticed she is sensitive to changes in season- she went completely stupid this spring for 2 weeks, and then returned to normal (no laminitis) - not on any grass, no change of diet or anything else.
5) Current feed: Ad-lib hay,1/2 standard round scoop (I think it weighs about 300g, but not 100% sure) of fibrebeet soaked and split between two feeds. 50ml Magrestor daily, 1 scoop protexin daily, tenderfoot 80 (2scoops twice a day (- I'm thinking of cutting this down as wondering if too much iron in it), silver lining herbs for skin and immune system once per day. She's about the right weight although I think she's lost a little since her feet have been sore, she's also lost all her topline and you can see where her muscles have tensed up. She goes to bite her forearms when you put on/take of her boots because they are so sore at the moment.
I don't like giving her lots of supplements but have never managed to keep her sound for long enough to start reducing them, and haven't been brave enough to reduce them while she's lame. I've taken advice from thrinity consultants and silver lining herbs before but neither have come up with anything which has made a major difference. Thinking of stopping all supplemnets and trying remount, gastri-sooth and yeah-sacc to see if this helps instead. I've tried her on copra-meal in the past and she won't eat it.
I'm planning to get the vet out next week - I want to be clear on what tests I want doing before the vet arrives.
hobnob
Oh poor you Sooph. The only thing I can think of would be this years hay. Can you soak it to remove the sugars.
I have tried many things in the past with my metabolic mare and we have had a complete turnaround with Hilton Herbs Metabolyte. No pulses since she has been on it. I have known her to display footy symptoms I think related to her hormones previously and I know what you are going through.
I also found a great difference when I cut out Hi Fi Lite.
As you will see on here, all horses are different. I kept a diary for a year (saddo !!) noting feed changes, weather, pulses etc and it eventually helped me find out what worked for my very complicated mare.
Also a nice mud paddock is a godsend. Dirty ponios but happy feet !!
horsesfirst
Dodson and Horrell will do a hay analysis for you. Two levels of service.
sugar only (less than a £10) and sugar plus minerals for c. £50
brucea
Aw Sooph - it is a hell of a learning curve isn't it! A lot of us in here are on that curve with you so you're not alone!
I've been very impressed with the Ron Fields Remount 1 - we've used it and Yea-Sac and MgO to support all of our guys through a yard change over the last few weeks and 2 of them have had no access to grass for 2 years! The wee lami pony has coped well with the change and is ridiculously well in himself! I wish they did a human version.
Nic - absolutely - am getting an understanding of the ACTH thing now - I was speaking with a small animal vet earlier this week about just that subject (Becky had her pet rabbit put down - myxi - apparently there is a lot of it about at the moment) and her comment was that a lot of herbivores suffer from the same ACTH thing around this time of the year and she was really switched on about it. She does not do horses - but said her colleagues saw a lot of this and unfortunately apart from Pergolide they didn't have much in their bag of tricks to treat it with.
cptrayes
WOW! Who needs marriage guidance?!?! This stuff about cortisol levels in laminitics in spring and autumn just explained all I need to know about why my other half gets SOOOO stressed when the clocks change. Anyone know what supplement to feed a stressed Superhubby to reduce his cortisol levels?
C
ps Sooph I really feel for you, you have a terribly difficult case to manage there, with a mare that really might benefit from shoes but can't bear them being put on. I really don't know what I'd do in your situation, after I had finished tearing out my hair.
QAR
Caroline - OH and I both get stressed and miserable when the winter comes. We bought dawn simulator alarm clocks last winter and felt soooooo much better with them. I now wake up feeling bright and fresh and am much easier to live with
cptrayes
QAR wrote:
Caroline - OH and I both get stressed and miserable when the winter comes. We bought dawn simulator alarm clocks last winter and felt soooooo much better with them. I now wake up feeling bright and fresh and am much easier to live with
Luckily neither of us has to get up to go to work (I know, I know!) so he does actually wake with the rising of the sun. But he gets terribly bent out of shape by the clock change in the Autumn. I think in reality he is actually a bear who just happens to look just like Peter Jones (Dragon's Den, yes, he really does!). Because he's really a bear, he just wants to hibernate for the winter
I'm glad your alarm clocks work for you. I hadn't heard of them. Vitamin D is also very effective and cheap too, and most northern hemisphere dwellers suffer from a deficit of Vit D in winter. Protects from cancer too.
C
brucea
You can always slip him some of the Remount 1
jane stevens
Hi Sooph
Poor horse and you
If you are getting your vet out next week it might be aswell to suggest to him whether taking radiographs of all 4 feet would be of any help, (I'm presuming you havent got any ) in addition to blood tests.
At least that way your trimmer and your vet will have an insight of whats going on in the hoof capsule atm
I'd personally be looking to do everything I could to make her more comfortable and give her some quality of life, whatever that meant I had to do. What does your trimmer advise?
This stuff about cortisol levels in laminitics in spring and autumn just explained all I need to know about why my other half gets SOOOO stressed when the clocks change. Anyone know what supplement to feed a stressed Superhubby to reduce his cortisol levels?
) in addition to blood tests.
