| Archive for uknhcp.myfastforum.org Natural hoof care resource forums for all those interested in barefoot horses |
| cptrayes |
Feeling VERY naughty!Got home tired from a trip away and feeling naughty. I saw a posting on Horse and Hound a couple of days ago asking for stuff that was "evangelical" about shoes. I just posted this:Someone earlier in the week posted saying - "what I'm really struggling with is who are the authors & researchers who are evangelical about the benefits of shoes?" They couldn't find any so I thought I'd write it. Here goes I adore the way the blood supply is radically reduced in my horses leg from the knee downwards when it has shoes on. I love the fact that the reduced blood supply makes his feet grow slowly so I don't have to pay for more shoes. It's a shame his feet are such poor quality, but hey, you can't have it all. I am thrilled to bits that the shoe covers up the white line, so I can't see that the anaerobic bugs, that die if exposed to air, have a grand place to breed and eat away at the white line. I love that little pattern of old nail holes that you get, and the frilly edge you get to the hoof as it cracks to old nail holes. So pretty! I am so delighted when I want to go to a big event and my horse is a missing shoe - again. It's even better if I've had to pay entry fees in advance. I am ecstatic at paying my farrier £70 a set to nail steel to my horses feet. No-one deserves the money more. I get a real thrill out of the way my horse slips and slides all over SMA or smooth tarmac roads. Pure excitement! I love seeing all the xrays, nerve blocks, MRI scans and remedial shoeing when my horse gets navicular syndrome. It almost only happens to horses with shoes on, those barefooters don't know what they are missing. I am overjoyed that I can continue to feed my horse sugary food and let him get too many fructans in green grass and not worry, because the reduced blood supply below his knee means it doesn't affect his feet enough to make him unrideable. Never mind that he has behavioural issues or may feel constantly hung-over, I'll never need to connect that with what I feed him because laminitis is a foot disease, not a gut disease - isn't it? I'm sure there are more - perhaps you'd like to add a few? |
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| sarahh |
Oh Caroline, you are naughty 
I may have laughed so much a little bit of wee came out 
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| Sez |
Oh no - it'll be pistols at dawn 
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| hobnob |
Oh no - so funny, you are norty !!!
Have you heard of Tena Lady Sarah ? Great for dribbles apparently !!!!!! 
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| QAR |
ROFL. Off to HHO to see the response 
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| maggiesmum |
Saw it in there - Bad girl!! Very funny though, you may have started WW3 though
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| brucea |
There seemsto be soemthing about the H&H forum that can bring out the worst in you  I must have a look at that one though.
I am going to be using some shoes on Saturday, and very useful they will be too. I'm going fishing off Scrabster and they make really good, environmentally friendly, dont mind if I lose them, sea fishing weights
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| Rodania |
Bril.....
Brucea.... excellent idea... not that I fish.... they make bril door knockers too... perhaps we should collate a little book of useful things to do with horseshoes.....
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| horsesfirst |
Hooks - bridles, coats etc. Whack em onto a lump of wood with the heels pointing up. Cheesy (in more than one way if the horse was a bit thrushy) but effective and cheap 
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| becnreps |
haha oh my gosh you have been rather naughty there cptrayes!! 
That really is so funny, I do agree with maggiesmum ... I think you have started WW3! I'm going to go and try find the thread on H&H and see what ensues ...
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| becnreps |
oh dear well I wish I had never found the thread. It makes me sad 
most of these people shoe because they don't know any different.
It makes me sad because people truly believe that shoes solve the problem but really they're just masking it... Being barefoot isn't neccessarily always the best option and if the owner cant and wont manage it properly then its not fair to the horse. But I just wish that people knew the truth! I think that you have been fairly diplomatic on there cptrayes, it must be pretty difficult to be that way in those situations. |
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| cptrayes |
My postie takes my old shoes to play whatever-it's-called with his grandchildren
I'm not letting go of Radar's set - I can see clear daylight through the nail holes when I put them on top of his feet A vet who came to give him his flu jab was trying to tell me the other day that he had two different sized front feet. I said "yes, I haven't quite cured that yet - look at this!" and showed him the shoes. He never said another word, I wonder why ?
C |
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| stormybracken |
Don't you love it when people ask you to help them but don't mean it? Some people prefer the scaremongering, much easier, don't have to think much. | ||||||||
| Nic |
What thrills me most of all is that when I take a young horse hunting and we have a tumble, I have a lovely pattern of his shoe stamped on my body, which makes for such fun show and tell at A&E.
I also adore the spice of danger when I turn my horses out and watch them play about - who knows if they will break each others legs when they have a bit of a buck and kick?! Best of all is watching him trot along on an uneven surface, when he obviously has no idea where his feet are landing - what larks! |
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| brucea |
It's the other way for us caroline - there is a good 15mm of hoof outside from the quarters back round the shoes we took off! No one can believe they ever went on these feet! One of the girls at our yard collects many of the good shoes - cleans them up, sprays them with silver paint and using ribbons and small artificial flowers makes beautiful wedding favours from them. Nice little business on the side. I just revel in the excruciating pain when my clumsy shod horse crushes my toes - ooh pain is sooo close to pleasure... The way these shoes ball up with snow in the wintertime, the ponies look so cute when they are balet dancing! Oh dear he's lifted his clenches and sliced his fetlock open again, hmmm...I hope the vet brings that hot new student along 
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| brucea |
Just had to go have a look at this thread. Fascinating - like watching a car wreck! So we are all "lilac and lavendar waving hippies" - at least we can read! Must go and paint some more flowers on my hoof-stand. |
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| Chris Thompson |
Had a quick look, but could not find it
Any chance of a link to it Caroline?? |
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| sarahh |
i feel a bit sick now
all that ignorance couldn't help a sarky comment whoops
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| becnreps |
I'm not sure if we are allowed to post links to other forums chris?
The thread is called "Shoeing Evangelism?" If you cant find it by searching that, the way that I found it was to copy a bit of carolines original post on here and then paste it into the search box on H&H. Its a pretty interesting read!
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| Chris Thompson |
OK Found it.
A fun but sad read Reminds me of the old saying "there is none so blind as those who do not want to see" Just for the record I weigh on the south side of 14 stone, I ride a 14.3hh barefoot horse in a 2 stone western saddle, and heis hept at livery. I have also done a 50 mile ride on a barefoot horse. Must be doing something wrong!! |
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| Yann |
It's all very well if you have the right facilities for rock crunching horses, or they don't happen need them, but being barefoot isn't necessarily such a bowl of cherries if that's not the case. So how about a bit of balance here?  (and yes, one of my horses is now de shod and the other will be again in a couple of weeks time just in case you were wondering).
I love the way my horse gimps on stones, although they do have such pretty feet. I love keeping them stabled or paddocked instead of being out with their friends running around socialising, playing and being horses, it's so much better for them even if it doesn't really solve the problem. I love the thrill of not knowing whether each successive gallop will be the last for the latest set of easyboot gaiters, it's like the lottery, only more expensive. I love having to dismount and look for boots in the shrubbery, you get so much closer to nature. I love splashing out on the latest wonder product that's going to finally make the difference to my horse. It's addictive.
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| Nic |
I don't think you'd find anyone on here saying barefoot is easy, Yann - quite the reverse. Personally, if my horses were gimping on stones and I was having to use boots, I'd go straight back to shoes as well
N |
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| sarahh |
Me too! It's just the sheer pig headed ignorance of some people. I can accept it is a choice, and would choose to shoe myself if i needed to. Makes mr grrrrr when others cannot accept the fact it is a choice that should be made with an open mind. |
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| cptrayes |
Chris thanks for your info. The one thing I wasn't sure of my ground on was a relatively heavier rider on a smaller horse. You've sorted that out for me TA
I'm no evangelist either. Hunt Radar with shoes or not hunt without them? Where's that farrier's phone number? C |
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| Chris Thompson |
He is smaller that I thought - I put a measuring stick on him today, much to his disgust, he is only 14.2 hh. Nobody tell him though please, he thinks he is a 16.2 hh showjumper
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| Sez |
I've waded in . It's quite addictive, poking at them isn't it 
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| sarahh |
yes but i felt bad afterwards, like when you've eaten FAR too much chocolate! | ||||||||
| Chris Thompson |
Play nice children - remember thay are the poor unfortunates.
Surprised that nobody has mentioned that the Houston police force horses are all barefoot and that they do 8 hours a day on roads. Also Darolyn Butler who has maybe 50 sucessful barefoot endurnace horses. |
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| Sez |
With regards to the endurance horses. They just reply that they are all pure bred arabs doing one discipline - so endurance doesn't count any more.
Apparantly it is all about the genes as to wether a horse can manage barefoot or not .
I have a pure bred arab so he is Ok . Does anyone know where genes apply to my Ardennes x ID X ID x TB x WB 
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| horsesfirst |
of course its in the genes
which is why Grace is going to learn to hop...... on her one good Arab foot because her QH foot will get navicular and the two warmblood feet will be far too flat soled and thin walled to go barefoot right?
See that is what you get for getting a heinz
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| Yann |
There are an awful lot of owners out there who manage their horses part or full time in boots, and it's not a problem to them. Are we really suggesting that their horses would be better off in shoes? I personally got a bit fed up with the limitations of boots for my situation, but I'm only shoeing as little as I can get away with.
I thought they also used hoof boots as necessary?
Well, it does seem to make at least some difference where the horse starts from, so don't discount it. All the no fuss rock crunchers at my yard are horses from breeds you'd expect to have 'good' feet, arabs, cobs and native ponies. |
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| Chris Thompson |
Very rarely these days from what I am told. They have build a superb new barefoot friendly stable facility for their horses, with grass free turnout, hay feeders in the turnout and the stables to simulate foraging, stables with patios, so the horses can wander in and out ad lib, etc. Maybe I could use it as a basis for a talk on a design for a barefoot friendly livery yard for the UK for the 2010 conference. |
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| horsesfirst |
Chris you are right re Houston.
Not convinced on the genes thing. Bearing in mind how important diet/environment/exercise are - it is equally likely that certain breeds have acquired reputations for poor feet because culturally those breeds tends to be kept in ways which contribute to poor feet. Where I got my Arab from (bred to race not show) they all lived out 24/7 barefoot until they raced at age 4+, with the exception of the stallions (which were stabled). And unsurprisingly the stallions feet were not so good. QH have a bad rep foot wise but in the main IMHO they have a poor unbringing in this country at least (from a physical point of view). But the 3 QH I have taken barefoot have transformed into good barefooters very quickly. The little mare has struggled, but only because 'helpful' people keep adding sugarary products to her feed. In the windows when we manage to prevent this she is great. Personally I love hoof boots. Can use them when you need them and take them off when you don't. But then I don't hunt, although I did do '000s of miles barefoot (no boots) over all terrain on my old horse. |
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| lazeearabians |
That statement baffled me too. What's so terribly difficult about using boots? I use boots a lot - they're no more hassle to put on than the full set of brushing boots and over reach boots I used to put on when my horses were shod. And I don't have any problems with them flying off - once on they stay put until I prise them off. Surely boots are always better than metal shoes? Hoping to try the Easyboot Glue-ons for longer rides next year and want to get hold of some of the studs developed by HoofGrove in Switzerland to give them a try. These studs proved very successful in the endurance race in Kentucky this week in really awful ground conditions. http://easycareinc.typepad.com/fr...orth-american-team-challenge.html |
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| horsesfirst |
I think we all realise in barefoot it is dangerous to make generalisations of any kind about anything
I love boots, people that hunt would appear not to. I don't hunt, would never hunt, but I guess people that do, find that boots are unhelpful. But regardless that doesn't mean that for all us non hunting folk boots are not an option. They are a great option if they suit the circumstances and the foot. Grace doesn't currently have boots; her feet are undergoing radical changes, but if next summer I am unable to manage her diet/environment adquately to be barefoot at all times she shall have boots. In any event I don't have a choice because I doubt that I will ever get her near a farrier again, nor on present evidence would I want to. 
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| becnreps |
I feel exactly like this. This summer has been tough for me, a lot of struggles with LGL and footiness on the rough ground. However, I have booted (sometimes it feels like a pain in the bum when my shod friends can tack up so quickly ...!) when I've gone on longer and more challenging rides. I really do think that I wont be going back to shoes because I just always see far too many benefits in being barefoot. However, it does sometimes make me wonder whether I "should" be shoeing when I see people on here and elsewhere saying that they'd rather see a shod horse than a footy one ... and Reps sometimes can be very footsore on the stones. |
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| cptrayes |
I really couldn't conceive of the idea of hunting in boots. I struggle to keep woof boots on my hunter never mind hoof boots. I can't see any way you'd end the day with them on, and you can't just stop and retreive them if they come off or the field will leave you behind, (if you can stop the horse in the first place!).
Luckily Radar is a rock cruncher and did four hours with some great runs and loads of jumping just fine today. On the genetic front I believe it does make a difference to how easily they take to it and how little trouble they are to feed. What I don't believe is that there are many horses that simply "can't do" barefoot. C |
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| Nic |
I'm not suggesting anything - thats why I said that personally, I wouldn't use them. I don't mind at all if others use boots, but they would be no use here because of the terrain my horses go over. 
I wouldn't criticise anyone for shoeing OR booting their horses - its up to you to make an informed and practical choice
Caroline - agree absolutely with your post above.
N |
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| stormybracken |
I think that as so much of the health of the horse, and therefore its hoof health, is down to the horse's metabolism then genetics will play a part, so the old chestnut the anti-barefooters keep using on a certain forum about "I have 2 horses who are managed in exactly the same way, one can cope with one without shoes, thus proving not all horses can go barefoot" entirely proves the barefoot findings that each horse needs to be managed as an individual.
And breathe..... |
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| Chris Thompson |
How about "There are many horses whose owners simply can't do barefoot" In my uneducated opinion the vast majority of horses can sucessfully go barefoot if given the right environment, diet and management. The problem is that the vast majority of owners cannot, or will not, provide the right environment, do not believe the part diet can play and feed their horse "junk food" (Look what a diet of junk food does to kids - why should horss be different?), or are able or want to make the committment to correct management, thus their horses need to be shod. What to other people think? |
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| Nic |
Don't know about anyone else, but thats not what I'm saying
I would MUCH rather see a horse being worked and an owner out there enjoying riding, whatever terrain and facilities are available to them. This is partly because a barefoot horse is much healthier when its doing lots of miles. If this is also YOUR opinion, then its UP TO YOU whether you enable your horse's feet to cope with that by being completely barefoot, shoeing, or using boots. The only thing that is NOT acceptable, for me personally, is for horses to be made to go over ground they are uncomfortable on - so if your horse can't cope with the terrain you ride on, you ought to either boot or shoe. Chris, I agree with you, and we also need to recognise that many owners struggle, as Yann said, to provide the right environment because of the constraints of where they keep their horses - hence the "need" for boots and shoes for many horses. Also think that both Horsesfirst and Stormybracken are correct about genetics - its not breed specific genetics particularly that are the problem, but between individual horses kept in the same way one can certainly have "better" genetics - and therefore healthier feet in a less than ideal environment - than another. N |
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| becnreps |
Nic, it might just be me being paranoid ...
See the thing is, I feel I've hit stalemate with my horse. Since he had LGL, his footiness hasn't improved completely and he is still footsore on stones. So when I see things like:
I think that maybe I'm being un-neccesarily harsh to my horse. I see that Yann has gone back to shoes because he can't get the environment right and think maybe I should too. However ... (and it is a big however!) most of the time I think that I really dont want to shoe. I can see far too many benefits in barefooting and after reading THE book ... feel positively cruel to even put metal on his feet! He has been barefoot for almost a year now and I feel that by shoeing, his foot health would slowly decline and all the hard work that we have "put in" would possibly be for nothing. So do you "give in" (so it feels like to me...!) and shoe or keep trying?
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| Nic |
As I've said earlier, in my own situation boots are about as useful as a chocolate fireguard - however for Horsesfirst, and lots of other people, they work really well.
I agree that shoeing is not usually the way to a healthier hoof, but at the end of the day only you can weigh up what is the right solution for you. For a footy horse IMO you have 4 options: 1: ride only on soft ground; 2: use shoes; 3: use boots; 4: change its diet and environment, if that is the cause of the footiness. But its YOUR decision! For me and my horses, 1 and 3 are not options, because we live on Exmoor and both we and the horses love hunting. Luckily I can have rock-crunching horses by going for route 4, so I haven't had to shoe BUT if I were on a livery yard up here and couldn't go for route 4, I probably would have had to shoe at least 1 horse. HOWEVER, just because 1 and 3 don't work for me because I am hunting on Exmoor doesn't mean they can't work for you
N PS: Can you tell I should be doing boring paperwork this morning and am procrastinating
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| SueH |
oops I've just (tried to) read this thread on H&H - bit difficult isnt it with all the ranting. Must add my tuppeny's worth as way too many comments on there about TBs being genetically only able to cope with shoes AND manicured turf. Just had my little guy Jake on the moors and oops not manicured turf and oops no shoes and oops no brakes !!
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| Chris Thompson |
Absolutely - I spent the morning in the sun trimming Naps for Bryan, I have finally got his heels down so his frogs can do some work and rounded his dumpy toes. He is also getting useed to the idea that he put his foot on the stand when asked. Have told Angela, Bryan's daughter that she has to read "the book" or I may have to stop trimming him. She has a sharer for him and sharer will have to read the book as well.
Have now got to settle down and do paperwork - so my turn to procrastinate
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| horsesfirst |
Having some responsibility for two horses at two equally but differently cr*p livery yards I can sympathise with people that struggle to manage diet and environment in these circumstances.
But - Little QH 'Mum' is something of a pocket rocket. Although she already pays for feed for her horse, she goes and buys the 'good' stuff that even though it is cheaper the YM won't provide. And she has stuck her heels in about soaked hay. I am not sure I have that much bottle. Turnout is a problem but Pocket Rocket has worked on that too and pays extra for her to go in a dirt paddock with soaked hay. (Actually I think QH Mum should have a medal - she is very brave in so many ways - hacks out for hours at the weekend looking for surfaces to wear the hooves properly on - even though hacking out on her own not so long ago was really daunting - she does it for her pone. Jumps xc even though she is terrified because she knows little QH loves jumping.) For Grace I DIY so food and hay not so much an issue - but the turnout is a metabolic horse nightmare. Nearly all the horses have some degree of laminitis. I broke the yard rules and kept Grace in during the day. Lucky me she behaved - and I got away with it because of the state she was in and its now 'established'. But its not easy for the faint of heart or people who want to get on with everyone all of the time. I've lost count of the knives in my back
But in my old age I'm getting brazen and have started openly trimming (am I trying to wind them up?) which I know rates serious disapproval. But stuff 'em Grace gets better and better all the time and their horses are lame all the time. Sorry long winded but we have had a great day and I am so pround of little QH and her 'Mum'!
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| brucea |
Welcome to the world of the livery yard... I'm lucky - I have some really nice people at our yard. I make a rule that whatever I do in the yard - trimming, deshoeing (quite a lot of), clipping, behavior help - I NEVER charge and that helps people to be more open minded to the things that I do. But it can be hard - only way for barefoot to be accepted is for people to see the changes and see that it does work. Same with feeding and riding too. But some yard manages are utterly entrenched in their views - and I found the only thing to do was to move on from that yard. |
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| Sez |
I was the odd bod, wafty barefooter on a yard full of tutters .
Now 'they' are beginning to come around and are standing in line for my trimmers to take them on. I am now a trailblazer . Hang in there
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| brucea |
"wafty"...ti's a good word isn't it!!!! | ||||||||
| Yann |
Interesting discussion
Well, personally I cannot and will not change the environment for my horses, mostly because there simply aren't any better options locally than where they currently are. That doesn't mean I haven't tried to do my best for several years within the parameters I have to operate in, fed the right diet, muzzled, stabled within reason, exercised the legs off them, but still been unable to get a result when the grass is growing. I've also literally spent a small fortune trying to find completely reliable boots for our riding and going, close but no cigar.
Yup, I've got two mares, the same age, kept the same, fed the same, do the same work. One has always had half decent feet structurally (cob) and one weak rubbishy ones that have only improved a bit (tb). Partly why I don't subscribe to the idea that all horses are born equal in the foot department.
I've been through exactly the same quandary, it's not an easy decision. A whole host of factors meant it could easily have gone either way for us, the fact I managed to find a farrier I could trust and discuss things with and be listened to was a major one. My personal solution is to shoe over the summer and barefoot over winter when we do less and they're pretty much LGL free. I have to say it was a massive relief when I did put the shoes back on, no more worrying about comfort or losing boots, but there are definite pros and cons whichever option you choose. Like Nic says only you can truly weigh up all the conflicting factors and decide the best course of action for your horse, and just as importantly for you as an owner. ETA that my experience so far is that feet don't appear to deteriorate that much if they're not left shod for too long, but that's mostly based on my cob, watch this space for the tb...
We'll that's one thing I haven't had to contend with, ours is very chilled and open minded
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| cptrayes |
I read all your posts and I just thank my lucky stars that I live in my own place, at height where the season is a good two months shorter, (4 weeks at each end) and with no damned busybodies looking over my shoulder every time my horse feels a stone (as if shod ones never do).
Keep up the good work all you peeps who aren't so lucky! C |
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| brucea |
Every time I have doubts, or feel like I am being swayed by the opinions of the YM, vet or local farriers - or just things are damn hard and I am disheartened I pick up this shoe that I kept and do this.....this is 12 months old this picture - it is quite a bit more dramatic now and his feet are much better
Click to see full size image When I look at this I know why I am doing what I am doing. Believe it or not that shoe came off that foot. If I need any more evidence of how wrong shoeing is - then I just don't know what it is. OK - he's not happy with some surfaces at the moment that he was happy with this time last year and we have had some rough times in the last 9 months - but I am determined to work out why. I want to understand the problem, then look for the solution - not just use an iron sticking plaster. I'm not going back there ever again, unless it is unavoidable. Sorry -needed to get that off my chest
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| Yann |
That's a great job brucea, those feet must have been seriously contracted and underrun
Backsliding this summer has been very interesting though, because it's clear to me that whilst shoes themselves don't do a lot of good to the foot, the way they're applied, and the interval they're applied at makes a huge difference. I had my cob shod at 4 week intervals, and my Tb at 5, because that's what they needed. But it's all too common for owners to run out to 7 or 8 weeks and consider a good shoeing job to be one that stays on rather than anything else, regardless of the effect it has on the hoof and the locomotion of the horse. So I would say it's lack of education amongst owners about foot issues and middling standards of farriery that have just as much impact if not more so than the shoes themselves. The link we all accept as a given between foot health, grazing and diet is still far from being accepted as mainstream knowledge either. |
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| Nic |
Yann, definitely true that not all horses are born equal in the hoof department, but also unless you are comparing 2 horses of the same breeding brought up in the same environment, there is also more at work than just genetics - the ratio is one of those great mysteries which will be different for every horse, I suspect
Bruce, it won't be much consolation, but its never the horses which are easy to keep barefoot which you learn from - the rehabs and Bailey teach me masses more about hooves than horses like Felix ever will, so Link will be a great teacher for you when you look back on it
N |
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| brucea |
Well if he could make it a bit more obvious I'd appreciate it! He's being very mysterious and subtle - and it is so hard to work out what is goign on!
At least the other two are obvious - Cob gets grass, alfalfa or grains, Cob hopping, Pony gets grass, alfalfa or grains, Pony lying on his back feet up in air. Easy.
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| hobnob |
Ah sounds like he doesnt want to hurt your feelings Bruce !
Go whisper in his ear "Whats up mate?" and see if he tells you ! You will get to the bottom of it and Link will have the best daddy ever. |
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| cptrayes |
Great pic Bruce. We ought to post your undresized shoe Link shot alongside my oversized shoe Radar shot - two sides of the same coin - though I have to say that I have found it MUCH more difficult to cure contraction than stretched feet. You are clearly doing an awful lot right!
C |
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| brucea |
Thanks Caroline. When I get a chance I will take another pic and post that. Will also do one of Bramble - as he has exactly the same kind of decontraction.
Mathew went a long way to making me accept that I should expect to see some symptoms of unease and discomfort as that whole remodelling process and ossification is ongoing. He has half way acceptable digital cushions now - he really didn't have much there before - just a thin flat place between the palmar processes. Diet and movement and time - there's no magic in alll of this, just hard work and frustration and determination! And lots of miles on a variety of surfaces. No news there! We are still working on the occasional central sulcus infections/tenderness and that is getting better too as time goes on - gauze and povidone flossing - all I can think of doing there. Cows loved the Greengold! Poor things in the barn are all lame anyway so it's just somethigng nice for them. Bought a couple of bags of the Alfalfa pellets so will soak up and see how this is tollerated. There is soemthing else he needs - I just can't quite grasp it yet. Am going to try the Remount 1 by Ron Fields for a while. |
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