| Archive for uknhcp.myfastforum.org Natural hoof care resource forums for all those interested in barefoot horses |
| horsesfirst |
Gracie updateThings that are going well:-All training exercises, including clicker, lunging, long reining, general manners. Things not going so well:- Farrier smacking her in the face when she bumped him with her nose Two people in small space induces terror Her teeth are terrible, but she is very worried by anything to do with the handling required for denistry. So the plan was to sedate her, but she needs to be sedated in order to be sedated....... So as Sedalin was a bust we are planning on rubbing the injectable stuff into her gums. To 'encourage' acceptance of this I am experimenting with peppermint fondant and if that is no good, Guiness (bottled natch). About the only strongly flavoured thing she likes is peppermint (and valerian). Not desperately keen on sugar lumps or honey. Carrots are good, but no good for the gum rubbing. Picture of her lunging:- (despite desperate teeth and feet she still tries really really hard and is reasonably blissful to work with if you ignore the fact that I still can't pick up her back feet). 
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| rose |
It makes you wonder what has happened to her in the past poor girl. She is very lucky to have found you. | ||||
| hobnob |
I agree - what a lucky horse. Well done with what you have achieved so far. | ||||
| horsesfirst |
Bless you - she'd be even luckier if she were with someone who is a better horseman than I am or if she had never landed up at the dealers in the first place. I do try but I am very aware I make some huge muck ups which then take some undoing 
Have discovered that when her feet are packed with her dry aubiose bedding she lands heel first in front. Which is handy because I am struggling to do more than the briefest of 'picking out' with the fronts and can't get near the backs at all. Clicker training is proving a boon - but found she doesn't like the peppermint fondant or the Guinness. But have discovered she will let me briefly rub the inside of her top lip. I might try soaking some gelatin in the sedative and then wedging it between lip and gum. |
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| horsesfirst |
We did it! Shoes off and teeth done  Phew. Never have a vet and I been so relieved 
And despite huge initial negativity and scepticism the vet admitted at the end that Grace had improved (behaviour) enormously and that he was wrong, she isn't a 'bad un' and that we should be proud of our progress. 
Her feet are badly underrun behind, but compared to the stress of the anticipation of today, I feel I can tackle anything. Photos later, when I have calmed down and got Grace woken up and settled safely for the night. |
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| brucea |
Well done - lots of hugs for her! | ||||
| becnreps |
Like everyone else said, thank god she found you, the poor girl!
Good luck with her and keep us updated! 
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| hobnob |
Oh well done both of you !!! Really pleased for you. Hugs from me too if she will let you !! | ||||
| horsesfirst |
Thanks Hobnob
Hugs duly offered - Cuddles go like this.... Stand by stable door, look at your feet and put your hands on your thighs where they can be seen. If all is well Gracie comes up for a 'snog' Click and treat! Rinse and repeat (rinse necessary coz Grace will have slimed your hair)
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| horsesfirst |
Foot p*rn here 
http://danceswithgrace.blogspot.com/2009/09/just-deshod-pictures.html I've started trimming the feet - more pictures when I've something to show |
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| SueH |
ah well done to you, Gracie looks lovely !! How lucky she was to find you. Bad horses dont exist...just bad humans who get to them first. Looks like things are definitely on the up for this girl!
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| horsesfirst |
Ok, not terribly exciting compared to all the dare devil jumpies etc that some of you are up to. But very exciting for Gracie, letting a big chap feed your your dinner while tied up is a big deal. Baby steps and all that, but she is very relaxed which made my day.
Click to see full size image We are slowly fixing her feet. Progress somewhat dictated by requirement for open space and no disturbances as Grace still freaks out somewhat when people do what people do and she is still somewhat claustrophobic. The corridor in the barn is a good compromise for Grace. She can see two clear exits which make her feel safer, but it is harder for people to spring a surprise because two sides are protected. Oh and she is not that small but OH would make the basket ball team if he chose. |
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| sarahh |
He's pulling a great big soppy face!
Well done Grace for being a brave pony. Far more impressive than our jumpies when you consider what she's come from x |
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| horsesfirst |
Belted up at lunchtime and luckily found yard deserted. Old girl relaxed enough to balance her fore on my knee so I could give it a bit of a roll and then let me do the hinds. ahhhh I am all loved up!
This is her dodgy hind, the one that was roped and had infected open wounds round her pastern as a result. The crack was deeply infected and oozing black goo. The shoe had been put on so hot that the nails had welded in and we had somewhat of a challenge to get it off. (not just related to the shoe). But it is all growing out and so long as I make sure she feels safe we have no problem working on it - little bits at a time. 
Click to see full size image 
Click to see full size image And this is in the (too grassy) field with her mates. She more or less comes to call although I have screwed up the clicker training somewhat. I should point out there were two magpies on her bum before I got the camera out. 
Click to see full size image |
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| hobnob |
Absolutely amazing - I wish I was closer - would love to visit her - you have done just brilliantly !
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| horsesfirst |
I am a very lucky person. Grace is amazing. If you are ever in Kent do swing by. | ||||
| dorisday |
Gracie looks absolutely amazing; unrecognisable from those first pictures of her straight off the meat wagon. Absolute credit to you. | ||||
| Nic |
Lovely photos, and well done Nice-looking feet too
N |
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| SueH |
really nice photos - gracie giving off chilled vibe which is very cool to see
well done to you ! and yes indeed rather nice looking feet
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| horsesfirst |
Thank you - Yay its all in the genes don't yah know.......... Absolutely nothing to do with diet etc 
Pictures of feet in July 
Click to see full size imageIt would appear that the shoe was nailed on over the top of overlaid bars. Which may explain the infection and corns we found underneath. Lovely bit of thrush too. 
Click to see full size image Her leg is sort of floating in space as her foot has scooted out frontwards and just had a shoe put on the top without redressing balance et al. and this past week 
Click to see full size image 
Click to see full size imageYou can see its a long way from perfect, I probably need to put in a bit of a quarter scoop, but as we are doing these more or less two swipes at a time we haven't quite got there yet. (although she has got very comfy lately and I can do quite a bit more than two swipes now) The thrush has gone, although you can see remenants of the corn on the left. Underneath the mismanagement she does have nice feet, I am very lucky. Although the backs of her feet were very weak and her diet had been very poor, she hadn't been fed lots of sugar (because she hadn't been fed at all for at least two years). The yard I am at is miles from ideal (grass and ignorance in equally huge proportions). Virtually no useful facilities and less than brilliant hacking. I keep her in during the day and turnout just before dusk. She has 'the diet' and lots of hay while she is in. |
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| horsesfirst |
 
Click to see full size image Off fore exactly six weeks apart, first picture immediately after deshod. Second picture is as nature has seen fit, with a bit of dietary change and lots of little and often trimming. Today I took the bars down a little as they had gone from 'live' to 'chalky' (not shown) and found another (old) bruise. She is getting really good at standing for being trimmed and even coped with a bit of an audience today which she used to be really bothered by. I still give her lots of rest stops, and have to accept a 'better than nothing' approach because long drawn out squinting, adjusting and photography sessions are out of the question. 
Click to see full size image This is OH giving her some in hand hard surface walking exercise. Her previously rock hard tense back is now getting nice and malleable. And yay! she leads without squishing anyone or hauling on the lead rope. 
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| vickyclink |
ah bless her she looks like such a sweetie! well done for all your hard work! I wish there were more people like you! | ||||
| stormybracken |
I love watching her progress, makes me feel a bit tearful! | ||||
| Nic |
Well done, lovely pics again
N |
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| horsesfirst |
Oh thanks everyone
I tell you what makes me tearful (in a good way) - the way she leaves her mates and comes up to the gate when I call
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| SueH |
lovely photos - Gracie's looking pretty cool well done to you
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| horsesfirst |
I'm the lucky one - I'm learning a lot.
Her 'language' is familiar but with a different 'accent' and very softly spoken if that makes any sense. The grammar is different too. Its almost as though she is speaking German. And my old horse would fix me a direct look and say 'you do get it don't you?' but Grace isn't that bold yet. She is actually very patient, but her cues are subtle. Which is why I think it would be easy to dismiss her as highly reactive, when she isn't, its just the cues have been missed. Mind you with me around she has learnt a lot of extra patience. I can almost hear her thinking 'and just how long are you going to take to do that?' as I fiddle around doing her feet or whatever. |
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| horsesfirst |
Grace had a badly infected hind foot. For pictures of before and now see
http://danceswithgrace.blogspot.com/2009/10/six-weeks-off-hind.html The damaged quarter has grown a line of horn which is as hard as granite and is almost impossible to rasp. Its a bit like an upright strengthening beam. |
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| horsesfirst |
Sorry to be slushy. But every day now for about 10 days/2 weeks Grace has come to call. Usually out of sight on the far side of a hill - it only takes one 'Gracie' to get her in. And it means leaving her mates. And no I don't feed her straight off. Every other day she has to 'work' first. | ||||
| brucea |
She knows what side her bread is buttered on
Well done - the pictures are telling a fantastic story. |
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| hobnob |
Slush away horsesfirst - ditto Bruce - great story !!
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| horsesfirst |
Ok - its sunday - so I can be a bit indulgent.
Yesterday's tale of embarrassed enlightenment. http://danceswithgrace.blogspot.c...mbled-and-little-embarrassed.html Grace has given me a lot to think about. And the more thinking I have to do the more I cook. So we now have 15 portions of beef in ale and about the same of sausage in tomato sauce. And a roast chicken. And a beef curry. And that was just what I cooked after yesterday's foot trim. As the freezer is now completely full I think today I will just turn her out.....
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| Sez |
It was lovely to read though. Gracie is one very clever girl. We humans are very limited creatures sometimes but those lucky ones of us have a clever horse to show us past our own noses.
Dinner's on you, then? |
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| horsesfirst |
Thank you and I expect that as soon as a suitable device is invented Gracie will be writing her blog herself
Dinner is on me - and it won't be barefoot mash either
Making pastry and dumplings today............... |
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| Chris Thompson |
What, not humble pie?
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| horsesfirst |
ha ha ha ha
home made pie with dumplings is pretty humble! or maybe you don't realise just how bad my cooking is
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| Sez |
I was hacking my old arab around a new area some years back. At a certain point he refused to go forward. After a few minutes I got annoyed and tapped him with my whip (back in the days when I still did such thing ) and he siged and walked on.
A few minutes later I had to turn back - I'd gone the wrong way and he had been trying to tell me .
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| horsesfirst |
They are so much smarter than many people give them credit for aren't they. | ||||
| Chris Thompson |
Oh Yes. Have you read "life lessons from a ranch Horse" there are lots of examples in there
One time I was riding Choctaw in the woods near Houston, I was going down a wide fire break track where we usualy had a good canter. This time Choctaw refused to canter and was reluctant to go down there. We has fought our way about 50 yards down it when he stopped and refused to go any more. I was trying to see what the problem was when a deer shot across the track about 30 ft in front of us. Choctaw did not move or spook. About a second behind the deer was a cougar (mountain lion) in hot persuit. Once the cougar had passed Choctaw moved - straight ahead at full gallop. I just hung on and prayed that I did not fall off, or that he did not stumble. I did not know he could go that fast. No, I do not know what happenned to the deer, but Choctaw must have sensed the cougar, adn wanted to protect both of us. |
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| horsesfirst |
On my first horse, a stunning Qrab chestnut mare - was doing an endurance ride where the route was a clover leaf shape. We had a bit of a 'debate' about which loop to take in which order. The horse of course was right, even though I had the map..........
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| stormybracken |
Storm has been a great worrier when it comes to travelling, on the six occasions I'd moved him in a trailor or lorry for 30 minute journeys he always arrived dripping with sweat, and it took longer and longer to load him each time. I bought myself a trailor, watched a Parelli DVD over and over, had help from my instructor, and spent HOURS playing with him in the field with the trailor. He became more and more confident about standing in there, walking in and out forwards and backwards from both ramps, but kept pawing and messing with the back ramp. You've guessed it - the reputable dealer I had bought it from had put new wood over old rotten wood on part of that ramp....
Of course, he also regularly lets himself out of the electric fencing into the VERY grassy field. |
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| brucea |
I got a lovely lady called Alison Jones to help me to train Link to trailer load. We had already done all the games on the gournd. Took 20 minutss to have him troting in and out tf the trailer thinking it was a great hoot!
Seldom any issue getting him in the trailer now - but a real problem getting him back in when it;s time to go home - especially if we have been tt the beach and there's the posibility of more fun to be had! Geez Chris - Britain may be wet and horrible - btu at least we don;t have nasties like that going around. I got a row for wandering around on my own in the woods at the Horizon camp in Northern Alberta - went for a walk along the tracks. Beautiful - but apparently there are lots of coyotes, mountain lions and grizzly bears. Hadn't given it a second thought until the camp boss showed me the pictures of them hanging around the camp! The next morning we couldn't get to the truck because there was a coyote the size of a Shetland pony sleeping on the bonnet that had been warmed up by the sun! Never went for a walk like that again. |
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| horsesfirst |
Grace had her second injection today.
I love vets (?) Knowing how Grace is freaked out by a crowd he brings a student! Yay.  And he wouldn't give her anything to make it less of an ordeal. I can see his point (in that we need to get past this) but I don't think that freaking a horse out helps them get past anything. 
We did the deed. I'd be lying if I said it went well. Having waved vet and student au revoir it then took me 20 mins of serious clicker reinforcement to get her to trust me enough to take her headcollar off. Although I got it back on again I am planning to spend a large chunk of this evening practising. Oh yes I luvvve vets.
I will just have to get over my own issues so that I can jab her myself. One good point - he was impressed with the progress made with her feet. Suggested I did it professionally
Maybe just maybe he will get the message - but I'm not laying any bets. |
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| cptrayes |
Well done on the feet, but what a STUPID man with the jab! How would some ACP or sedalin in her feed have hurt? She would still have been awake enough to learn that she wasn't going to die and now all she thinks is that she's been attacked. Grrr.
C |
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| stormybracken |
I do feel for you, it's very difficult to stand your ground when you're dealing with someone who doesn't see the need to listen but who's expertise you need!
On the plus side, each time you and Grace have to face this type of situation at least you now can gain her trust again afterwards, that must surely be strengthening your bond. |
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| horsesfirst |
Its not often I lose my rag. I might feel the need to do so (privately) tonight.
Her injection site is so sore I can't touch her neck on that side at all. (He went at it like he was splitting logs.) And after an hour of softly softly I can stroke her head all over including her ears and she will touch her head collar but I can't get it on. And we were supposed to be moving tomorrow. Fat chance if I can't get her out of her box
The other thought is - he introduced the 'student' as a vet. I added the student tag. I hope the individual was a student because they didn't know the difference between a contracted and a decontracted foot.
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| stormybracken |
Mmmmh - the vet who is no longer brought a student with him on at least two occasions, I have often wondered what they learned as a result of his visits.
Best of luck tomorrow
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| hobnob |
Poor Gracie. I would loose your rag if it happens again !!
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| brucea |
One of our vets (who rather fancies himself I think) brought a student. Blonde, tall, pony tail, knock out gorgeous to be honest.... He was sounding forth to her about injection locations when he marched up to Link in a dim stable and stuck his innoculation right into his brisket without any warning. Horse hadn't seen it coming, reared in terror, banged his head on the roof and came down on said vet who was scrambling out of the way. I think the student learned not to do that.
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| Sez |
You are not paying for a student, you are paying for a vet. Next time, student can stay near the car unless you decide different. .
If you run into any attitude tell the vet, you will rain the full force of the UKNHCP maifiosa on him  .
Gracie won't hold a grudge about this, but please make sure you are not holding a grudge about it around her. If you are feeling upset and sorry about the whole thing she will sense it and worry, as close to you as she is. Take a few deep breaths and let go of it. Am not normally so 'wafty' but I have a sensitive horse and I practically drove him round the bend once when I was feeling stressed about life in general. I didn't know why he was acting out and so was worrying about that too .
Then one day he was rearing at the end of the leadrope and I dropped the line and took a huge deep breath while I thought about what was going on and my shoulders saggged with defeat. He stopped and looked at me in the strangest way when I relaxed - I could see him saying, "What the F*** is the matter with you!"
As soon as I chilled out a bit, all the behaviours from him vanished.
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| sarahh |
Funny you should say that, I noticed with Boy recently he really picks up on my moods...it would appear my little coblet is more sensitive than I credit him for! |
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| horsesfirst |
You are right of course. I always counsel being cheerful round the neds.
didn't stop me coming home and wailing and demanding SUGAR
OH is very understanding..... esp when I said 'either I get sugar or you give up the ciggies!'
Now sated (or should that be sedated) and ill feeling. But at least I've not reared up and clobbered anyone. yet...........
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| hobnob |
Funny you should say that, my teeny black monster pony is quite handy with his teeth. Never really able to work him out / Anyway if you walk past him in a tense way thinking 'dont bite me you bugger' he will. Walk past him calmly and he doesnt !!!
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| sarahh |
....but may have done if OH had not supplied sugar...?
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| horsesfirst |
Ah - now there in lies a tale!
OH is a 6ft 2 ex marine. But he has discovered that a 5ft 4 dumpling is a force to be reckoned with. (Its the low centre of gravity and sheer b*** mindedness apparently) Bit like a shetland really
And I bite too - but not yet the vet ............... |
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| brucea |
Ha Ha Ha....I can just imagine what is written in your veterinary file - "Horse OK, but watch your fingers with the owner. Do not feed!"
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| horsesfirst |
I have a policy of not chasing my horse round the box. No point in arguing on that one - its 'our thing'. Plus never fancied being the meat in a Grace/breeze block sandwich.
So 'our thing' is that I stand in the doorway and she volunteers to approach and be handled. Before the vet visit yesterday she would come right up and practically beg for physical contact. After vet visit (head collar removed) every time she saw a person, any person she would hide in the back of her box. By COB yesterday she was coming to the front, but ducking her head behind the door. This morning (it took an hour) I can touch her with the headcollar and have a reasonable snuzzle. I am hoping it will not take too long to persuade her that she won't be hurt again. This is as bad as the farrier clocking her on the head. Looks like we won't be moving today - hell she won't even be getting out of her box today.
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| brucea |
But...sometimes you just have to take the attitude of "C'mon, just get over it, you've had your mope and plenty of sympathy, and now it is time to move on."
I've never owned mares - always avoided them, but this is the approach I find I have to take to the geldings a times. "I've acknowledged your problem, I'm not going to ask you to do something that will kill you, but you just have to get on with it now..please." I find that sometimesthey can feed off your concerns and anxieties, and you have to shove this to one side and show them that you aren;t worried. Otherwise they become addicted to the coddling...as long as you are fair, it works with them! But like I said...I've never owned mares, and that's not by accident
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| horsesfirst |
Let's not get into the mares v geldings thing. I've had experience of hundreds of both and I'd rather have a mare any day of the week. But its a personal thing.
Brucea I understand your approach - and for some horses that is the approach I would take too. But not this one. Not a horse that has been so badly injured by inappropriate handling in the past and still has the physical scars to prove it - let alone the mental ones. Trust me - I have personal experience and this experience makes me able to deck a 16stone 6ft 2 ex marine when my buttons get pushed, despite being much shorter and lighter. Fear is a terrible thing and should never be under estimated. So we are very careful not to push my buttons and I am equally careful not to push Grace's. Never fancied having a horsey landing on my head. And I get equally upset when my fear causes me to deck my beloved. oooh need a cup of tea now
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| stormybracken |
That's what I'm learning brucea with Bracken, how to ask for something he "can't" do. His history is a blank to me as what I've been told and what is showing up don't match, so I don't worry about what went on before as I do with Storm because the mistakes were all mine with him! But his behaviour and physical damage as time goes on is very revealing. It is "how" you ask rather than "what" you ask, but you have to be at a level of communication and confidence to be able to do that.
Obviously I don't know you or your horse, horsesfirst, but someone once said to me "pretend this is someone else's horse, how would you behave differently?". Time is a great healer, but only if the setup is right for the healing to begin. Sez's advice sounds perfect to me. Taking the pressure off yourself, after all your the one doing all the mental and physical work, and deciding not to move today sounds like exactly the right thing to do, and when she does move you'll have a whole load of new positives to learn with her. Thinking of you
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| Sez |
One thing I am learning from my studies is that horses are not considered to have any ability to use logic and reasoning. This means they cannot often formulate a plan or 'think things through'.
Alot of the time they are reactive to the situation or our communication (often latent, which is where problems in communication can arrise) and they live 'in the now' and purely on instinct. Their intelligence may be considered small by the fact that they cannot reason in a human way - but I personally feel their intelligence cannot be gaged by human standards. Their ability to pick things up is huge, hence their trainability. I never really got the whole 'talk horse' natural horsemanship thing, but I am beginning to see my stupidity with equine communication and where I have gone wrong in the past. I wonder if the relationship between woman and horse is so close because we women often live by emotion and instinct too. It may be the 'prey' mentality that we share - survival by being cautious and not allowing 'dangerous' situations (walking home in the dark etc)? A little off topic and certainly not aimed at anyone - I am just finding this kind of thing interesting to learn about. (and have just finished nights and am a bit rambly....) |
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| Sez |
My old Arab is not the sensitive one - he could care less how I am feeling . It is my Ardennes x ID that is the sensitive one - I don't think people realise how sensitive cobby types can be . They are often sensible, 'stop and eat grass rather than run away' types, but they are clever and easily worried creatures too  . [/quote]
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| horsesfirst |
Horses are much smarter at the whole comms thing than the average human. Its seems to me in comparison we blunder around somewhat bull in china shop and I am amazed at their patience with our sometimes crass approach. And that is why I love my girlies - they sort of take me by the hand and point out my c*ck ups in the most gentle of ways. Even Grace whose early responses were to rear and double barrel has learnt how to.
Grace is brilliant, very trainable and incredibly snuzzly. But she is also 'damaged goods'. Her confidence has been badly broken in the past and so our newly formed bond is fragile. --------------- Just been on the phone to the vet and explained the current circumstances. We have decided that on top of everything that she has had a bad reaction to the vaccine. I am provide heftyish pain relief for 3+ days and not move her until she is 100% again. (Her neck is sore and inflamed at the injection site.) I must admit he was very good on the phone and quite practical, putting Grace first which is always a plus in my books. And bearing in mind her reaction next we may change brand but we will definitely provide pain relief and anti inflammatories. But he also said that we should consider not jabbing her again unless I need it for documentation purposes. So although I am miserable about the retrograde steps with Grace, I am pleased at progress with vet. Which rates a modest smile I think
And thank you everyone for your good wishes and patience with my ramblings. This is a difficult 'project' and it helps to waffle on a bit with understanding folk such as yourselves. So Thanks and thanks and thanks again
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| brucea |
And it's knowing which horse to take what approach with. I find with Link that he will feed of of anyone else's fears (mine mostly or another horse) and sometimes the "Right I'm taking charge now, and we are doing this " works, gets him to step off the spiral, and he goes "Oh thank goodness, I can't bear to be brave about this any more - you be brave for me"!! Apollo on the other hand - no way - he has to be reasoned with - real LBE. I've ridden and known some wonderful mares - but I got geldings, I kind of stuck to them because it makes things easier logistically - if you get what I mean.
I think we are all full of admiration at you for taking on such a horse as Grace, and for having the love and committment to help her recover from what sounds like an awful, heartbreaking past. |
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| horsesfirst |
Bruce - thank you.
My old mare - the Arab was fab. Sometimes she shook with fear, but if you took the 'jolly hockey sticks' and 'we are all in it together' approach she was fine. She would have a go at anything. She was also a very good lead for novice and lala horses and had a few heroic moments too. I miss that holding hands thing we had. But with a good dollop of (the evil) bute Grace is feeling soooo much better. I have almost got my old Gracie back. No longer hiding at the back of the stable but willing to 'chat'. More for lack of options I mucked out round her and put in new bedding and retrieved buckets etc which would have been impossible not so long ago (unless I wanted to lose my head). So having started the day in such a state and been quite upset it has all turned out not so bad. Who knows I might even get a head collar back on her tomorrow - we got half way this evening and we left it on an upward curve. So I will sleep tonight without having to knock myself out.
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| horsesfirst |
Grace was very happy to see me this morning and practically put her headcollar on herself. So I guess that a) her neck is not so sore and b) she has forgiven me!
Plus this evening she came to call as usual. So that was huge relief!
At least we now know why she is so bothered by being jabbed. |
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| Sez |
Excellent. | ||||