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poghag

Grass or alfalfa alternatives

So, for rock crunching, I need to cut down grass, cut out any hidden molasses, yet my trimmer has quite a few cases who are alfalfa-sensitive and I've just found this article:

http://www.womenandhorses.com/protein20050517.html

... which seems to highlight the negative effects of protein in general (so would this include linseed/copra meal?)

I'm at the point where I'm undertaking changes in Pog's diet to further improve his already pretty-OK feet... so am making the change from his cheap nuts (hidden molasses) to alfalfa pellets, losing the Readigrass, and will gradually switch to linseed/seaweed etc. etc. instead of balancer... I guess it's a case of see if it works???

What do people feed if their horse is sensitive to alfalfa?  I guess I'm talking more "performance" horses who would probably need something more than grass or hay.  I know copra meal has been recommended, but how careful does one need to be in order not to over-protein, if feeding linseed also?

Sorry, lots of questions there, in a fairly jumbled fashion.
brucea

Quote:
Kidney problems

If the barn smells like ammonia, this is a bad sign. Some of the protein in alfalfa is converted to non-protein nitrogen (urea) and/or nitrates, which are toxic to horses. The body produces ammonia in an effort to flush excess protein, urea, and nitrates. This process is very hard on the kidneys, not to mention the potential for respiratory problems from inhalation of the ammonia fumes. Healthy urine should be clear, not cloudy and foul smelling


Interesting article - there was a gelding at our stables who had just those problems and it was a low protien diet that the vet recommended and it seemed to sort it out.

His urine looked like it pea soup. (groan...)
becnreps

Quote:
Kidney problems

If the barn smells like ammonia, this is a bad sign. Some of the protein in alfalfa is converted to non-protein nitrogen (urea) and/or nitrates, which are toxic to horses. The body produces ammonia in an effort to flush excess protein, urea, and nitrates. This process is very hard on the kidneys, not to mention the potential for respiratory problems from inhalation of the ammonia fumes. Healthy urine should be clear, not cloudy and foul smelling


Oh dear ... this is worrying.
My horse is still on lucie stalks, I am planning to put him on an exclusion diet to see if I can get rid of this footiness (which seems to be getting worse rather than better  Sad ) and his urine is fine in colour but smells very bad ... sometimes makes my eyes water!! I wonder if this could be a sign of something wrong?
becnreps

Sorry to post again ... but what about RuffStuff by Simple Systems?
It says it is "mature grass" and has only 8% protein.
No idea on the sugar content though!

Hobnob, if you're out there somewhere ... what is it that you feed?
Was it allen and page fast fibre?
I'd be interested to find alfalfa alternatives too!
maggie345

I don't agree with everything said in the link above. I wouldn't panic about the protein. Protein really is a very important building block, and the horse shouldn't be short-changed on it.
Unless the horse has a liver problem, it should be able to deal with excess protein quite well.
BTW, excess urea in the urine can have several reasons, among them a lack of essential amino acids (such as lysine)! If those are lacking, the rest of the amino acids can't be used efficiently and are excreted. Or the horse could be breaking down muscle tissue, because a better energy source isn't available (during exercise, when lacking glycogen stores).
Then there's the question of digestibility. Not all protein is equal. Usually, a digestibility of around 50% is assumed for forage (like grass/grass hay). I.e. the horse can only digest about half of the "crude protein" in the feed. Other protein sources have much higher digestibility (whey close to 100%).
Percentages don't mean much. It's better to figure out what your horse's protein requirement is based on it age, exercise regime etc, then see how much protein is in its feed, and whether it's enough. The NRC recommendations for an average adult horse for maintenance is body weight*1.26 (grams) crude protein (assuming 50% digestibility). I.e. a 500kg horse needs 630g crude protein per day, roughly. Do you know how much protein you are feeding? If the horse is lacking muscle despite apparently sufficient protein, I'd try supplementing lysine to see if it improves.

I do know that some horses react badly to alfalfa. I don't know why, but I don't think it is simply the amount of protein.
Nic

I think this may be another case of a US article being applied over here, where we use alfalfa differently.  In the US, alfalfa hay is common and this can give horses an overload of protein as it forms y=the majority of their diet.  

Here we feed it as an addition and its not easy to feed more than 2-3kgs max per day of alfalfa, typically less than 1% bodyweight for a horse.

Some horses are sensitive to flash dried alfalfa, like Alfa A, but its less common to find them sensitive to things like alfalfa pellets.  Personally I am not sure its more the process which is the problem  Wink

N
maggiesmum

I have an alfalfa sensitive pone, although it seems to affect his attitude more than his soundness, he gets copra as a base for all his goodies and does pretty well on it.  Very Happy

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