I posted this on H&H and I've had a really decent discussion going in between the trolls. I thought you might like to see it.
First some requests. This thread is for serious information for people who want to know it. Please everyone stay reasonable in your responses, be polite to other posters and keep calm, nothing in this refers to you personally or your horse personally. The use of qualifying words like “some” or “most” means just that - some, or most ie “not ALL”. If your particular horse didn’t fit what the text is about, it’s just one of the “not some” or “not most” and does not prove anything by itself. “It looks very likely that most” does not mean that the main statement is not true just because you personally can find an example that doesn’t fit. “Cannot” does not mean “will not” and does not imply ANY wrong on the part of the owner, quite the reverse.
So let’s start with one statement, and if you don’t agree, please read no further, this post is NOT FOR YOU. Shoes damage feet. Most farriers will agree that shoes damage feet. This may, for the lucky horse, extend no further than a bit of nail hole damage, but for the unlucky they will cause navicular syndrome (an outmoded name now, but since most people use it, it will do) and for the majority somewhere between the two. Therefore, I hope we can agree that shoes are a necessary compromise for many owners.
Please stop here and go away if you are unhappy with what you have read so far, I’m not writing this for a fight.
Shoes are an UNnecessary compromise for many owners, who simply believe, like I did until five years ago, what they have been told for decades, that horses need shoes if they are to work. They have become a “right of passage” for young horses, with owners celebrating, as I used to, the passage into adulthood made so very visible (and audible) by shoes. There are thousands of horses in this country doing no more than going from a stable to an arena and back to a stable, who have no need of shoes whatsoever. There are thousands more with great, solid feet who could do all that they do with their owners currently without shoes only the owners just don’t know it.
If you are still with me, let’s go.
Why are horses shod?
Horses are shod because when shoes were invented horses were machines. Barefoot feet require more attention and shoes can keep a horse which might otherwise be unsound ready for battle, to pull your carriage and to plough your field.
Why would they be unsound? A barefoot horse, generally speaking, needs roughly the same level of work all the time. A lengthy time off a particular activity and you will need to build up again gradually. There’s no such luxury if your horse is your war machine or you need to harvest today while the sun is shining.
Shoeing modern horses has nothing whatsoever to do with carrying a rider, amount of work, working on roads, working on tracks or any of those, as experienced barefooters will tell you. It’s a hangover from always needing your horses feet to be fit for work, from when they were machines. And it’s useful for today’s owners, many of whom are simply unable to provide what their particular horse would need to work barefoot.
No I am NOT suggesting that you treat your horse as a machine, but your forebears certainly did.
Genetics
Of course genetics matter. Some breeds, like Arabs, in general find it easier than Throughbreds to go barefoot. Some Arabs have a real problem and some TB’s don’t notice the shoes are gone. Two brother horses may have different ability to go barefoot. Genetics aside individual horses vary wildly in their ability to go barefoot. Experience appears to be showing that one of the principle causes of the huge fluctuation between otherwise similar horses is down to the ability of the horse to digest sugar. More later on that.
I have been sharing my experiences with a group of people over 5 years since I started a daily (practically minute by minute!) blog on what happened to my horses when I took their shoes off, joined by Nic Barker and moving into the founding, by her and Sarah Braithwaite, of the UKNHCP. That group is showing what is happening with hundreds of barefoot working horses. I’m sure there are other groups finding this stuff out too, I’m just telling you about the one I know.
One thing is very clear. Horses without shoes are much more obviously affected (in their feet) by summer grass sugars than shod horses.
Ultrasound and thermography (photos of heat) have now shown that the blood supply below the knee in a shod horse is markedly reduced from that in a barefoot horse. The additional blood supply accounts for why a barefoot horse’s foot replaces itself, usually, in around half the time of a shod horse.
Research is now taking place into laminitis to investigate something that barefooters are beginning to question for themselves – if a barefooter has twice the blood supply, is it delivering twice the toxins to the foot, and therefore causing an inflammation of the laminae earlier in barefoot horses? It looks very likely that the answer to this is yes.
The first sign of laminitis is slight sole sensitivity, and many barefoot horses will feel stones slightly more when they have access to grass sugars during the day in spring and summer. Many barefoot horse owners, as I do, restrict grass intake to the times of day when the bad sugars (fructans) are lowest.
Some horses are drastically more sensitive than this, and their owners struggle to keep sugar out of their diet, providing track systems around the edges of their fields with no grass at all, and feeding dried grasses instead.
Not many people are in a position to provide this environment. It doesn’t make them bad people for shoeing their horses.
It does, however, explain why a lot of horses are fine until they start work, and then “need” shoes – because the timing of the end of the big growing period in horses is exactly when we think they are mature enough to ride. They stop growing so fast, they get a tiny bit laminitic with their reduced need for energy and we mistake that for the work making their feet sore. It happens again at seven or eight, end of growing altogether, when there is another spell when people who have happily worked a horse barefoot for years can suddenly find that they “need “ to shoe for the horse “to cope with its work”.
Can all horses go barefoot?
Most horses CAN go barefoot, but many owners can’t provide what they need to do it.
Many horses can go barefoot easily, most without much trouble, and a much smaller number with much more difficulty. Many owners cannot provide what their particular horse needs for barefoot.
Transition from shoes to shoeless can be painful for the horse unless you can provide unchallenging surfaces at first. In a livery yard, you are stuck with what you’ve got. We are not all lucky enough to have total control over the environment that our horses live in.
Owners of sugar sensitive horses will struggle terribly in a commercial livery yard where they may have to fight the yard owner to stop their horse being fed molassed feeds. Mineral and trace element balances also appear to be crucial to the horses who do the barefoot thing less easily and some are badly affected by chemical worming routines required by livery yards.
Working people struggle to keep up the work levels during the week so that their horse is ready to do what they need at weekends. Turnout is not enough to build the strongest feet, they also need work. If boots won’t work for their horse, those people have no option but to shoe.
Many people need to feel backed up by their farrier and vet, and some farriers and vets are very unsupportive, a few to the point of downright ignorance. Those people won’t be able to go it alone with a barefoot horse unless it does it very easily.
Most barefoot horses who do a lot of work need their feet kept dry for a period every day. Those of us who are most successful with “less easy” cases have “dry turnout”, where the horses can still move around without being in the wet. Barefoot horses need movement to keep their feet growing fast. Many horses would not cope barefoot if in a stable for half the day or more.
Research shows that standing on concrete and on unbedded rubber mats compromises blood supply to a barefoot horse. Bedding choice to keep the feet dry and the frog and sole supported is necessary, but that choice is not available to everyone in a livery yard.
People who need studs have to shoe. Many of us have been surprised at how little we miss studs. I evented up to Novice Affiliated (four foot one xc) and only ever missed my studs in a bone dry, short grass dressage arena.
So before I stop, let’s clear away the obvious responses.
My horse can’t go barefoot because he has weak feet, thin soles, flat feet, cracked feet, odd shape feet, navicular/laminitis and needs remedial shoes.
There is no horse out there with worse cracks, flatter feet, thinner soles and all the rest than horses that have been cured by taking them barefoot. These case studies have been documented on various websites if you would like to research them.
Surely it’s better to shoe if it stops laminitis?
I don't think so. Laminitis – inflammation of the laminae - is a symptom not a disease. The disease is a gut disease, where bacteria jump the wall of the gut into the bloodstream. Even if there isn’t enough blood getting to the feet to cause inflammation of the laminae, those bugs are still circulating in the bloodstream of the horse, causing unknown problems to other tissues in the body. It has been a surprise to many of us how many horses who go into barefoot rehab have behavioural difficulties which disappear as the feet come right. Barefoot believers also prefer to know that the bugs are there and prevent them than to mask the main symptom with shoes.
I tried barefoot and it didn’t work. My horse was sore/his feet cracked/got terribly short.
If your horse got sore, you were unable to provide the full conditions that your particular horse needed to make a success of barefoot. You can put a lot of work into working out why, or you can shoe. Either is a good alternative. If his feet cracked the most likely problem is that they were simply too long because unshod working feet can look VERY short to people used to seeing shoes. If his feet got short but he wasn’t sore – you had it right all the time.
My farrier/vet says my horse will never cope barefoot.
So did mine. They were wrong.
I’m not going to say anything much about the benefits, they really speak for themselves when you take a horse barefoot. The benefits are the reason that so many of us get a bit evangelistic and get so many people’s backs up. Unfortunately, just to say that barefoot is better for a horse than shod can be read as an implication that you as an owner are “mistreating” your horse if you have it shod. There is NO such implication in anything I have written. Better a well shod horse than an uncomfortable barefoot one.
I do hope this helps people understand more about barefoot. If you’d like to discuss it, please let's have a sensible and reasoned discussion.
becnreps
That is a very good statement that you have put forward there, it is very true.
I cant believe the things that people come out with on that website and I dont know how you remain reasonable with them!
Heres a good example:
Quote:
I did however, love the part where you claimed that keeping horses unshod required more work - that made me laugh.
Oh well, hopefully your post will at least open some peoples eyes to the truths about being barefoot. Its annoying the way that everyone views being barefoot as a "new thing" and a "fad" ... ! How?! Horses have been barefoot for years and were barefoot before they were domesticated and shod, thousands of years ago. Oh sorry ... we have apparently 'bred the feet off our horses' now anyway.
cracky
I saw it last night!! Well done for plugging away!
rose
Good on you for trying I suspect I would have justt kept quiet, nice balanced argument. The only point I would add is that some forms of laminitis can be caused by some form of metabolic disorder ie insulin resistance/equine metabolic disease which is not necessarily linked to toxins per se as far I know.
Well done.
Yann
Spot on cptrayes, I think that says it all, in a very reasoned and reasonable fashion.
stormybracken
Really good posting. I hadn't thought about the correlation with the age before, but is also spot on with my horse, along with behaviour issues.
I'm not going to watch the fall-out, as I'm sure there will be, as it isn't fun. Previous posts had helpfully prepared me for discussions with ill-informed vets and farriers so were very useful, and with trying to explain what's happened to him this year to various people who are followers of my journey with Storm for the last five years either through friendship or malice (you know how some horses are sent to teach you?), but it's just depressing now. Especially as we are, hopefully, everything crossed, starting to come through the other side.
Well done. I take it your lorry's still broken?
cptrayes
Thanks chaps, I'm really pleased that you think it's OK.
Yup, no lorry til Wednesday, what can I do now?????
C
vickyclink
excellent! I particularly liked this bit:
''It does, however, explain why a lot of horses are fine until they start work, and then “need” shoes – because the timing of the end of the big growing period in horses is exactly when we think they are mature enough to ride. They stop growing so fast, they get a tiny bit laminitic with their reduced need for energy and we mistake that for the work making their feet sore. It happens again at seven or eight, end of growing altogether, when there is another spell when people who have happily worked a horse barefoot for years can suddenly find that they “need “ to shoe for the horse “to cope with its work”.''
i am going to send that bit to a few people who will be interested if you dont mind, as it applies to their experiences
well done!
cptrayes
I don't mind who you send it to. It was a lightbulb moment for me that I realised I have less problems with summer grass with horses who are still growing. I have also read a number of times that people's horses get to seven or eight and then they "have" to shoe them and I asked myself why that would be the case if they worked happily barefoot for four or five years first.
C
Chris Thompson
It is a fun thread.
How many founder members of the flat earth society are on there?
brucea
I've looked at the threads - I'm not really convinced that this is doing the barefoot "movement" any good because it is giving the naysayers a big platform
That's not to say that I disagree with the original intention to have an informed discussion - but this forum is a different animal from the H&H forum - you can have a rational discussion here because the people here are singlemindedly focussed on their horse's welfare, and on making a real effort to work out what is the truth for their horse.
On the H&H forum, I think that kind of discussion is impossible given the nature of the beast.
There are people responding to your post CP who have 24,000 + posts and still aren't saying anything intelligent! That number of posts you begin to wonder if they have a horse - or maybe just a facebook farm with a few ponies arranged in straight lines like the OCD sufferers they must be!
Here's a thought - I wonder of we can convince Facebook Farm to introduce farriers and barefoot trimmers - then we could see how many horses each group killed off! Maybe arm them too so they can kill each other and steal their energy. The farriers will look like pot bellied trolls with ugly dogs, the barefoot trimmers will be smart, blonde, minxey and live in caravans.
C'mon - there are even posts about "what colour of jacket should I buy"? You just don't get that on the UKNHCP forum...but you might get a "Wow, I just got a jacket for £2 at out local tack shop...it's green with yellow stripes and peuce spots...but Wohoo - it was a bargain at £2".
I must not drink a whole cafitiere at 8 in the morning. Not good
dorisday
Quote:
or maybe just a facebook farm with a few ponies arranged in straight lines like the OCD sufferers they must be!
Brucea, I just laughed out LOUD at this! Lovely stuff for a 'first thing Monday morning' bleeeuuurrrrrggggghhhh . . .
brucea
I've calmed down now. Be patient with me, I'm having to deal with moving livery yard at the moment and realising just how much stuff there is to sort out!
cptrayes
I've given up reading it now that the trolls have gone rampant so don't tell me what they are saying now!
But 950 reads before that happened, and lots of people saying how useful they found it, so I'm happy it did what I wanted it to.
Bruce you're priceless !
C
ps I buy men's jackets in charity shops to wear as hacking jackets. Had to pay £3 for my last one though, so not really a bargain.
SueH
Bruce - you are indeed priceless
CPTrayes - what can I say, you are something else!
Nic
Maybe we won't post on the H&H forum that we will be at Your Horse Live and available to chat about barefoot performance horses in a couple of weeks
N
Jane
brucea wrote:
The farriers will look like pot bellied trolls with ugly dogs, the barefoot trimmers will be smart, blonde, minxey and live in caravans.
ROFL
C, I applaud you for trying a convincing argument, but personally wouldn't have wasted my breath!
cptrayes
Ye I thought that might not be a good move Nic! I posted it partly to test whether we should. The answer seems apparent!
Ah but Jane for all the trolls over 1100 people have seen it and didn't comment, or commented positively and I reckon half of those might have a better view of barefoot and I'm happy with that.
C
sarahh
I enjoyed what you wrote so much that I couldn't bear to go on the H&H forum & see what the trolls had to say.
A very well written, informative post & I hope it has at least planted seeds in a few minds
x
Chris Thompson
Just visited troll central - it is still rumbling on down there, so did a bit of stirring.
Nic
Quote:
Just visited troll central
What a superb name for it
As for the flat earth society, don't forget that the H&H editor hunted my horse Charlie barefoot over Exmoor for 5 hours exactly one year ago today, and still didn't get it
N
Chris Thompson
Nic wrote:
[don't forget that the H&H editor hunted my horse Charlie barefoot over Exmoor for 5 hours exactly one year ago today, and still didn't get it
N
Someone has alluded to that on the forum.
Chris Thompson
The entire thread has been deleted from the H&H forum.
Wonder why?
cptrayes
I suspect they may have launched an even more personal attack on me after I went to bed. I don't know, I'm not reading it any more. My God those Carpal Tunnel posters are siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick!
It was, I have to admit, great fun baiting them for 2 hours last night.
C
Sez
cptrayes wrote:
I suspect they may have launched an even more personal attack on me after I went to bed. I don't know, I'm not reading it any more. My God those Carpal Tunnel posters are siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick!
It was, I have to admit, great fun baiting them for 2 hours last night.
C
Oh no - she's addicted. Someone hold her down while I get my exorsism kit
THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU
cptrayes
Oooh Sez that sounds like fun, yes puhleeeze
brucea
No Caroline - you entirely have the wrong idea.
Exorcism does not involve fun things like ball gags, leather, whips, duct tape, and that cool cream that comes in aerosols powered by laughing gas...
...it more like holy water, incense, wooden stakes and taking away your internet connection for your own good.
Nic
Quote:
Exorcism does not involve fun things like ball gags, leather, whips, duct tape, and that cool cream that comes in aerosols powered by laughing gas...
...and they say its grim up north...
You'll have everyone heading for Aberdeen via the Peak District...
N
brucea
We have to make our own amusement in the dark wet nights...
Sez
Ahmen sister
Chris Thompson
cptrayes wrote:
I suspect they may have launched an even more personal attack on me after I went to bed.
I think you may be right - a couple of people mentoned a slanging match before it was pulled.
Now they are complaining because it has gone.
cptrayes wrote:
It was, I have to admit, great fun baiting them for 2 hours last night.
C
Yes I enjoyed it too. They rose to the bait like Piranhas rising to a bit of raw steak
I think you had a couple of allies on there
cptrayes
Aw Bruce you spoilt my whole evening.
C
cptrayes
What I enjoyed most Chris was that although most of them seemed to claim to be academics they had no comeback whatsoever on any of the points I made re aspirin, catalysis, Kitkats or anything else. They only had personal attack at their disposal. I particularly enjoyed using more technical language than their own, they just had no answers. They aren't interested in discussing alternative hypotheses which fit what we are seeing, they are just desperate for attention. They are truly disturbed people!
C
Chris Thompson
cptrayes wrote:
What I enjoyed most Chris was that although most of them seemed to claim to be academics they had no comeback whatsoever on any of the points I made re aspirin, catalysis, Kitkats or anything else. They only had personal attack at their disposal. I particularly enjoyed using more technical language than their own, they just had no answers. They aren't interested in discussing alternative hypotheses which fit what we are seeing, they are just desperate for attention. They are truly disturbed people!
C
Yes, although I read them differently - they are in their little rut and happy there till we come along and disturb them. Then they get all twitter and bisted.
Who was it who said "if the facts do not fit my theory then the facts are wrong"
I liked their response to the Houston police horses going barefoot - Basically they considered that irrelevant, along with anything else that does not fit in with their view of the world
The one about the US bomber on Mars made me smile too. I saw the reply to that but did not see their reaction to that reply. I was hoping to see if what I had been told about trolls exploding if they are annoyed sufficiently was true
maggiesmum
Ok, firstly I didn't read much of the thread and its now been deleted so won't get the chance, BUT..... as amusing as troll baiting is surely the chasm between 'us' & 'them' is plenty big enough and we should be trying to build bridges rather than to make it wider?
Chris Thompson
Building bridges in OK - providing the person you are trying to build a bridge to wants it built.
Many of them do not believe in barefoot horses and the very mention of a sucessful barefoot horse give them apoplexy.
Caroline's post and replies to them was, IMHO, measured they resorted name calling and mud slinging. They were demanding proof, yet what ever links they were given were not acceptable as references. Then when they were challenged they had an attack of the vapours.
Julie
"surely the chasm between 'us' & 'them' is plenty big enough and we should be trying to build bridges rather than to make it wider?"
I also wonder how constructive troll baiting is. These people will surely just bad mouth natural hoof care with even more venom than before (and lots of people listen to the yard know it all, no matter what rubbish they are spouting). The facts are too far away from their traditional beliefs to be considered. A certain type of person will only come round to something new if they can convince themselves it was their idea.
Yann
Quote:
I also wonder how constructive troll baiting is.
I don't think it is. It's far more effective not to rise to the bait, anyone neutral will simply view that sort of thing as two sets of nutters fighting it out and throw any potential babies out with the bathwater.
You're never going to convince anyone you're right if they don't want to know, but you might sow a few seeds elsewhere and get people thinking if you put your ideas across in a non confrontational way.
brucea
Well like I said before....these trolls must have a hell of a lot of time on their hands. 24,000 posts...get a life.
brucea
Well loks like there are way too many people with too much time....
The H&H forum has died quite spectacularly. Gateway crash. Thewhole thing is cloged up with.....
cptrayes
Julie wrote:
"surely the chasm between 'us' & 'them' is plenty big enough and we should be trying to build bridges rather than to make it wider?"
The people I baited are extremely unreasonable and had already attacked me very personally on another thread. They have no desire whatsoever to learn about barefoot and they just wanted a fight. It gave me some comeback to give them one for two hours. Up until I went to bed, when I think it went a bit wild and then got removed, it did pretty much nothing, neutral or otherwise, for barefoot because people who wanted a reasoned argument were not the audience. Except perhaps for one, who appeared by the time I went to bed to be making a commitment to go and visit Nic and see the rehab research in operation and to set up a study into blood supply differences in shod and unshod horses. I was very pleased about that, because up until then she had been a right troll.
The way to build bridges is by being honest about barefoot, which I was on the earlier posting, and then was promptly attacked by the trolls and accused of having something to hide! The trouble with public forums are manifold. For a start the anonymity that practically everyone but me hides behind lets people be a damned sight ruder than they would be face to face. For a second people write things they don't mean and read things that weren't written. And for a third there are an awful lot of unintelligent and/or ignorant people around posting nonsense.
The only real way to get the barefoot message across, as Nic says, is to get out there and do it on barefoot horses. Radar did us all proud yesterday on that front.
C
Julie
"The only real way to get the barefoot message across, as Nic says, is to get out there and do it on barefoot horses."
I totally agree. I'm don't think its possible to convince a person about natural hoofcare with words alone. Only the horses we ride and trim can do it. A few days ago lady on a yard I trim at asked me look at her horse to see if I thought it could go barefoot. Its taken a year of seeing a previously shod (and lame) horse that I trim there going out doing everything to convince her to try it.
becnreps
Quote:
I'm don't think its possible to convince a person about natural hoofcare with words alone
I dont either. I've given up now as no one really believes me due to the fact that I've been struggling all summer to keep him from LGL and being footy. So I cant really provide any evidence to support my claims!
Same as when farrier didnt believe me that being barefoot was best for navicular horses. I had no rehab horse there to show him ... and he was never going to be convinced by me just telling him!
Yann
Quote:
I'm don't think its possible to convince a person about natural hoofcare with words alone
No, but discussions on general internet forums and elsewhere do sow the seed for a lot of people. Most people seeing a barefoot horse with fantastic feet out there and 'doing it' will still simply assume it's just a freak of nature rather than a shining example otherwise.
Quote:
I've given up now as no one really believes me due to the fact that I've been struggling all summer to keep him from LGL and being footy
The problem is that might often be many people's only direct experience of barefoot horses on their yards, a lot of struggle and not a lot of consistent end result, which isn't going to enthuse them to follow suit either.
brucea
Quote:
I've given up now as no one really believes me due to the fact that I've been struggling all summer to keep him from LGL and being footy
Yes - but Becs now you know that your horse has problems, and is sensitive, and you are trying to address the underlying issue rather than just slap an iron sticking plaster on it. Taking the long view takes time and dedication.
By the time a horse gets to that point he is well and trully compromised. That means that the way back is likely to be a long one - and it just brings us back to the same old theme "All horses can go barefoot, but not every owner can have a barefoot horse"
CP - I have been getting a few direct PM's and mails from people who are fed up with the heated discussion and just want to talk cooly and directly, out of public view. Sent one or two Nic's way becuase they were back of foot issues.
