Sez
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Navicular and strange advice on H&HOP was asking for advice on her newly diagnosed navicular horse. OP had looked at barefoot and immediately said it would not be possible due to flinty ground. Said she may breed from the mare if needed to retire.
I advised getting a UKNHCP member out to assess the horse as flinty ground may not be a problem with transitioning and boots.
This is another poster's reply:
Ok, I am no expert but please do not go barefoot with her. Alot of navicular cases have issues with heels collapsing and general lack of strength in the heels - barefoot is the WORSE thing to do!
Has your vet not given you any ideas re. remedial shoeing? My boy has navicular changes since the new farrier decided to take it upon himself to change how he was shod while on loan. I have his front toes taken off, natural balance and the shoe is place quite far back so that he has complete support on his heels. So far, since being shod how he should be, he's sound as a pound. Unfortunately I've paid over £600 in vets fees just to realise that I know how my horse should be shod!
As far as i knew, navicular is a trauma problem, not passed on?
WTF? I found myself getting snarky so have bowed out of the conversation. Am I just being grumpy or are some people odd????
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horsesfirst
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Sez, not just odd, but also badly educated and poorly advised. And then they pass it on. 
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brucea
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The wonder of this new interweb thingy - in olden days bad advice had a way of killing itself off - now it persists and gets spread even wider. 
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becnreps
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Sez, most of the time I've given up on even saying anything or giving anyone advice to have their horse barefoot. Every time I do, I get shot down in flames or 'ganged up on'.
Most people do not even wish to learn or listen to how barefooting could work for them.
Maybe I should give up on this forum malarkey... 
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stormybracken
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I just stick to this one now, having "explored" some of the others. Although could be seen as single issue, it isn't, as everything affects the horse's feet whether feed, stress, ill-fitting tack, the weather - the barefoot can show symptoms of all of them, and everyone has experience of some of them.
I know there are a variety of "horsemanship" techniques used by people on this forum, and as someone who is a complete convert to so-called "natural" horsemanship it is good to be able to learn about successful barefoot without the way I handle my horses getting in the way, which as all barefooters know can be how all areas of their horsemanship is judged by some with metal shoes! Think that makes sense.
The beauty of this forum is that people back up their comments with experience, and know that their experience with one horse will not always be the case with another. One size does not fit all. Feel better now I've said that 
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cptrayes
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I've just attacked her/him on the H&H forum - caught me in an aggressive mood!
C 
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brucea
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| Quote: | | as someone who is a complete convert to so-called "natural" horsemanship |
Agree with what you say stormybracken. One size does not fit all - indeed one size does not fit, at all times, for one - so I'm finding.
I didn't so much convert to "natural horsemanship" but started to recognise more and more what constituted "unnatural horsemanship" and began avoid it.
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stormybracken
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excellent way of putting it! Me too.
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Nic
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Just had a look at the H&H forum and it looks as if the real people are winning  Go guys 
Totally agree with all you've put, but ironically I've just had an email from someone whose horse is unshod and has been diagnosed with navicular - who wants to bet it has a weak caudal hoof and is landing toe first?! 
Incidentally a friend has just been riding Ghost this morning, and she tells me he is "too much horse" for her  Actually she rides him well, but he is big and fast compared to what she is used to - so even a 24 yr old navicular horses has still got what it takes 
N
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stormybracken
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Yep, that was me, just proving that unshod is NOT the same as barefoot. Yet. learning, learning, learning, mistake, learning, learning....
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Sez
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I don't go there very often but I'd posted questions about hydrotherapy and McTimony and went looking for replies and navicular caught my eye .
We all mentioned Rockley Farm it seems
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Sez
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I couldn't help but have a look again. We're not winning. Please see the latest.
My horse would never cope because he has paper thin soles and low lying pedal bones. Truth be told, in the wild he'd have not lasted two minutes, but he's a TB and they don't run wild, they're breed for domestic use. If you take his shoes off he's crippled and it's not something diet or environment would fix. Yes maybe if I left him for six months they would harden up but my vet and I believe it's not humane.
Sigh 
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stormybracken
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The original post hasn't replied to anything yet, so may be checking out the genuine information offered.
Amongst the (plenty of) advice I've been getting from well-meaning friends has been the one seen on that post in which the owner has a long-term lame horse but still feels they are doing the best for them by rejecting the nutritional/barefoot process as being too uncomfortable for the horse. Two good friends of mine both believed my horse's lameness was due to poor farriery and recommended their farriers on the basis that they had kept those horses sound for years. The fact that neither horse was sound, one needs re-shoeing every four weeks or he loses a shoe and regularly trips, and the other lived on bute, completely escaped them. We skirt around the issue sometimes, and then move to our other favourite topics, food and wine. I just need to prove it by example.
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brucea
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| Quote: | | paper thin soles and low lying pedal bones |
How does she know? Has she x-rayed them? If this is the case for her horse - paper thin soles, low P3 position, crippled when his shoes are off - then she really has some very significant issues and she does need changes to diet and environment and supportive hoof care to fix - and leaving him as he is represents a course of action that "is not humane" !
"humane" - so often an emotive and subjective concept that is used to justify our own prejudices and perspectives
| Quote: | | I just need to prove it by example. |
Probably the only way to prove it.
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becnreps
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| Quote: | | Truth be told, in the wild he'd have not lasted two minutes |
oh my gosh, why don't people know that bad feet are made not born?!
And like Bruce says, if she has all these issues now, paper thin soles and low pedal bone etc, then there really is some problems in there that need sorting out. Shoes are not the answer, they are merely a 'quick fix' that will almost always come back to bite you in the end.
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brucea
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Well I don't quite know why I did it - probably needed a distraction from the contract documentation I've ben ploughing through - but I spoent an hour browsing the H&H forum.
My goodness, some of the things you read there are quite extraordinary!
I'll hang out in this forum - most of the folks here, except for a select few  , you know who you are , seem quite sane by comparison!
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Nic
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| Quote: | | If you take his shoes off he's crippled and it's not something diet or environment would fix. |
Really?!?!? Does she want to bet?!??!!!!!!!!!!!
Just got back from taking Angel on his first day hunting - oops, another navicular horse, one of that well-known feral breed, the "Dutch Warmblood". Came here on 2 bute a day, now moving very nicely and has just been rock-crunching on the moor.
Guess what - but you know already - he was crippled when his shoes came off, so we changed his diet and environment and let him grow a whole new hoof in comfort...
Bruce, I think we are better off where we are than on the H&H forum - don't forget their editor hunted Charlie all over Exmoor all day and never mentioned a word about his feet Its a parellel universe!
N
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Roobarbs Mum
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| Nic wrote: | | Its a parellel universe! |
There's the problem  We're all diagonally parked
Lucy
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Jo Mitchell
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"My horse would never cope because he has paper thin soles and low lying pedal bones. Truth be told, in the wild he'd have not lasted two minutes, but he's a TB and they don't run wild, they're breed for domestic use. If you take his shoes off he's crippled and it's not something diet or environment would fix. Yes maybe if I left him for six months they would harden up but my vet and I believe it's not humane".
Except of course the TB's in the Nambian DESERT who have wonderful feet on rock hard stoney ground (they were ex-army horses turfed out).
Farriers do know that horses are born with good feet and that shoeing is detrimental to the foot... they just are Ok with that..
[/quote]
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brucea
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If only they could talk....I wonder what they would tell us, and if we'd want to hear it.
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Sez
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Nic has been recommended about 20 times so far........
And I am a 'barefoot diciple'
I only wanted to answer a plea for advice with, "Get someone from UKNHCP to assess them" 
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SueH
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Navicular cant go barefoot ...TB cant go barefoot ??............come and watch me cling on board my little chestnut nutter. Now his feet are functioning properly, he goes like a stonk and gets to the front of the pack and if I hold him back he loses his temper big styleee - not a ride for the meek !
my other TB Clay is 3 months into the transition - collapsed heels, penguin flippers, shit soles etc etc. These are disappearing with diet change and strangely he's getting sounder by the day......
but until you accept how dynamic hooves are and that you can change it for better or worse with diet you're stuck perpetutating the same problem :roll
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brucea
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| Quote: | | Nic has been recommended about 20 times so far |
Hmm....
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horsesfirst
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| becnreps wrote: | | Quote: | | Truth be told, in the wild he'd have not lasted two minutes |
oh my gosh, why don't people know that bad feet are made not born?! |
Truth is people are scared of change. Anything 'new' is seen as a criticism of the existing order. And people are 'romantic', they like to see themselves as saviours hence the quote about not surviving in the wild. Turns the owner into self styled 'hero' for protecting their 'poor liddle horsey' from the big bad natural lifestyle.
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brucea
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| Quote: | | Turns the owner into self styled 'hero' for protecting their 'poor liddle horsey' from the big bad natural lifestyle. |
Laughing wildly! Briliantly phrased!
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Yann
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| Quote: | | And like Bruce says, if she has all these issues now, paper thin soles and low pedal bone etc, then there really is some problems in there that need sorting out. Shoes are not the answer, they are merely a 'quick fix' that will almost always come back to bite you in the end. |
The problem is that most owners in that situation can't see how to bridge the gap between where they are now and the horse in with tougher feet in 6-12 months time without causing immense suffering to their much loved friend. That is an entirely valid concern, and that's a bit of missing information those of us in the know need to be offering for consideration.
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Sez
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And get called a 'disciple' and sneered at? No thanks. H&H forum is not somewhere to dispense advice.
Going barefoot is something every owner needs to come to themselves. If said mentioned owner wanted to, they could easily research on the net like I did in the beginning.
It is MUCH easier to hand over responsibility of the horse's feet to a farrier, health care to the Vet and diet to the feed companies and let them get on with it than it is to tackle any issues with each. Ignorance is bliss.
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Sez
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Have to admit, I am rather enjoying going over there and saying whatever I feel
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Yann
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| Quote: | | Going barefoot is something every owner needs to come to themselves. If said mentioned owner wanted to, they could easily research on the net like I did in the beginning. |
But you're only ever going to come to it if you get exposed to information, so offering it in a friendly and passive way is never going to do any harm. Even if it's disregarded at the time and someone calls you names (so what? ), when the shit hits the fan and they've run out of options further down the line they might suddenly feel compelled to do that research, and your little acorn of information will have helped another horse.
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pat
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| Quote: | | But you're only ever going to come to it if you get exposed to information, so offering it in a friendly and passive way is never going to do any harm. Even if it's disregarded at the time and someone calls you names (so what? Very Happy ), when the shit hits the fan and they've run out of options further down the line they might suddenly feel compelled to do that research, and your little acorn of information will have helped another horse. |
so true Yann.
The people who benefit most from advice on forums are the ones who never post.
As an example around 2001/2002 when Strasser was at it's height everyone on the IHDG suppported it. She was the messiah and they were disciples.
My horses were barefoot long before she ever came on the scene so I knew at lot of what she was advocating was rubbish and dangerous. Things got very serious as those of you barefoot at the time may remember. Anyway one night I had had enough of collapsing feet and distraught owners. I explained it was dangerous on the IHDG. God did they fight back. They made the H & H lot look like pussycats. This went on for a year, thread after thread and often abusive E mails.
Suddenly I started to get requests for help. These people never posted, I had no idea they existed and yet they were asking advice and wanting horses trimmed because they had liked what I had said. All I did was keep on repeating the facts and what would happen al la Strasser. They finally realised that indeed it did happen and they had no feet left BUT they did have options as they suddenly remembered those little nuggets they had read such as "it is not a good idea to carve the sole out," or "do not remove those pesky bars way down below the sole level"and "drawing blood when you trim the sole is not a great idea" and they were able to work out there were other ways to trim.
Finally the worst of the Strasser disciples rang me up. Still couldn't convert her but we met a few months later at Pete Ramey's UK course!!!
IMHO barefoot zealots do little for our cause. Sorry if that offends anyone.
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brucea
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| Quote: | IMHO barefoot zealots do little for our cause. Sorry if that offends anyone.
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Pat - I absolutely don't think you will get a single person in the forum arguing on that point.
It does floor me sometimes to hear people focussing so much on the symptoms and behaviour and refusing to accept there is an underlying cause which they have it in their power to address.
(just been trampled by someone I gently - for me - made a suggestion to about the possible connection between buckets of sweet mix and completely unacceptable behaviour)
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stormybracken
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I had an interesting conversation with an elderly lady whose horse I used to loan. The horse 3/4 TB lived 'till her late 20s, had been a VERY tricky youngster, was too badly behaved for eventing, not clean enough for jumping, and not "sound" enough for dressage. By 14 she was a brood mare as an attempt with a loan family failed due to mis-behaviour, before an infection ten years later prevented further babies and I had her for light schooling and hacking, no problems. Although I didn't know then what I know now I believe she had healthy feet, there wasn't anything structurally wrong with her body My friend is very interested in Storm's situation as the family lost a horse to navicular recently. She and her family love their horses, want the "best" for the them, BUT are entrenched in what they KNOW. Her attitude to shoeing was very revealing. Our old horse had been shod BEFORE she was backed as a 3 year old "because we wanted her to have the best action possible". I would love to know if her whole history could have been re-written if they had barefoot knowledge. But then I possibly wouldn't have got back into horses without her. Selfish.
Pieces just keep falling into place for me.
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horsesfirst
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stormybracken I think you may be right and I also think that this is part of Grace's story. Chronic long term thrush made her feet hurt which made her back hurt which made various things hard for her for which she got beaten up and then branded 'a witch'. Funny now her thrush is gone she is really quite easy to handle. The only difficulty is her terror of certain things which remind her of the abuse.
Mind you I might change my tune if she bucks me off when I re back her
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stormybracken
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Apparently when this old horse was re-backed she did one big buck, and then settled down. Hold tight.
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horsesfirst
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I am hoping I get her to the same stage I got earlier horses when they were backed (yeah right) - so laid back they don't care. My old horse was backed when one day I was too ill to lead her to the field so I got on........ she was brilliant and nursed me all the way to the gate. Of course idiot me hadn't figured out how to get back to the yard ...........
oh dear weepy moment as I think back through my old girls - love them all. They have all without fail really really looked after me even when I have been a complete plonker.
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Nic
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| Quote: | | her feet hurt which made her back hurt which made various things hard for her for which she got beaten up and then branded 'a witch' |
There is a pattern like this with some horses who come here, even if they have caring owners they are often described as "sharp" or "reactive" and then once the pain issues are resolved, they change character and are so laid back its a joy to see.
Angel, who is on my blog at the moment, is typical - he's a Dutch warmblood and we thought he could be quite a livewire, but he has got more and more placid, partly due to comfort and partly due to confidence (he hadn't seen much of the world till recently) - as long as you don't ask him to go near cows, which are still the spawn of Satan and strike him with absolute fear
N
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dorisday
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Horsesfirst, your comment about Gracie hurting and then 'beaten up and branded a witch' reminds me of Brucea's fantastic rant on a previous post about livery folk, viz. how horses are punished for showing discomfort. Rang so true to me as it reminded me of so many horror owners I've witnessed in the past beating horses for showing fear/discomfort. Specifically one evil woman who would regularly beat her very beautiful young arab mare and scream at her at the mounting block because she wouldn't stand still for mounting; hardly surprising because the poor girl knew she'd be beaten senseless and screamed at. No doubt a terrifying situation. This woman sold the mare eventually. Thank god. Sorry to have veered off the subject slightly but gawdon bennett, some people just don't deserve the privilege of being around these beautiful trusting sweet animals.
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horsesfirst
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Unfortunately that sort of behaviour is seen everywhere. At the jumpies this weekend huge adult (about 13 stone) on tiny childs pony (small section B), large bottom spilling over cantle and causing saddle to dig in painfully into loins then beat same poor pony up for refusing one jump of a 2 6 course. I just wish such ponies were less patient but they are between an ignorant lump and whip so what can they do?
My old Arab was perfect. If anyone hit her she would kick them, just once, hard enough to say p*ss off not hard enough to do damage. And if you rode badly she just stood still and wouldn't walk on until you got your act together.
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brucea
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| Quote: | | scream at her at the mounting block because she wouldn't stand still for mounting |
And people do not think "why"...here's a summertime story...
We have two mounting blocks, both made by me, one in each school. One is right by the "big shed". A couple of horses were playing up and refusing to stand at one of the blocks. They would stand at the other one, but the owners wanted to to get on in the big school rather than negotiate gates. It had been raining and the ground was wet.
Rather than try to work it out - one horse was smacked quite a few times until it was staying put, but hopping from foot to foot. The rider got on and the mare bolted off, earning it another good smacking.
Curious, I took Link to that block and he couldn't stand still. So I put him in the other school and just thought through what could be wrong for a few minutes. When I got down on my haunches and put my hand on the ground I felt nothing, but when I put both hands down I felt a real tickling, took one hand away and it disappeared.
Current was leaking from the mains electric fencer to the earth which was attached to the building, and it was causing the wet soil arond the shed to be slightly charged. If a circuit was completed, two hands on the ground, you could feel it. Switched it off, unplugged it and the problem disappeared. The fencer was sent off for repair, and the problem was rectified - no more leaking.
OK - so that was a pretty obscure thing. But why on earth did the riders not consider that maybe their horse was having a real problem and at least try to think it through instead of just beating them up?
| Quote: | | large bottom spilling over cantle and causing saddle to dig in painfully into loins |
Never ride a horse whose backside is smaller than your own
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maggiesmum
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| Nic wrote: |
as long as you don't ask him to go near cows, which are still the spawn of Satan and strike him with absolute fear
N |
LOL Did you not know that cows are actually aliens in disguise and if you make eye contact with them they get you with their laser beam eyes!!!
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brucea
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Oh no - cows are quite easy... try chickens.
They couldn't possibly eat a whole horse, but my goodness can they inspire sheer terror!
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horsesfirst
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According to my old horse cows are like teenagers. Fine when you get to know them as individuals - but a bit scary when you don't know them and they hang around in groups staring at you, mooing rude comments and sticking their tongues out .................
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brucea
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And there you go - you just won't get that kind of perceptive, enlightening and in-depth analysis of critical problems on the H&H forum.
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hobnob
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Just a couple of comments to add to this ever changing thread !!
Bruce - good job I am not on a large livery yard, I would have no friends, I would have tied that rider to the leccy fence by her hair !!! AArrgh - why are people so ignorant ?
On the light bulb moment and trawling the internet, I remember a couple of years ago when my mare was not right and not barefoot trimmed, staying up late every night looking thru the internet. I wasnt sure what I was looking for but I knew there had to be another way of trimming or something to explain the problems we were having. I can remember the moment when I shouted out to my poor husband........... "I've got it - you arent supposed to have the sole callous chopped off when the feet are trimmed - its there to protect P3 !!!!" I had finally stumbled (excuse the pun) across the likes of Pete Ramey and you guys !!
So, as someone else said, if the owner wants something to change for the good of their horse, they will put the effort in until they get an answer.
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