| Archive for uknhcp.myfastforum.org Natural hoof care resource forums for all those interested in barefoot horses |
| babyjay |
Slipping!Went BF end of Feb and back then we couldn't do much obviously and then the dry weather came (summer).8 mths on and this is our first taste of wet terrain! We are up to speed so to speak and although the shod horses are slipping abit, my BF mare is I think slipping alot more! 
I read loads on how well BF's have so much grip, and they do, on the roads (amazing grip), but not finding much on how well or not, they cope on wet slippery off road conditions 
I have been lucky in competing hunter trials for 3 wks in a row but all on nice dry ground. (will show pics when I get last one) 
The hacking alone is like an ice rink for a trot or canter. The thought of competing, even hunting is a real turn off. Does it get better?
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| cptrayes |
I've honestly never had a horse slip more unshod than that horse did shod. I evented affiliated and now I hunt. Did your fellow slip before in those conditions?
C |
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| babyjay |
I have to say slipped less in shoes.
eta the terrian is a mix, and not ness clay. |
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| brucea |
I think my horse is a lot more footsure now and very careful where he is putting his paws. The cob is like a mountain goat now, and he always stumbled in shoes.
Does the tarmac vary depending on where you are? I found that we needed the road nails and tried the gold crunchy stuff on the toes of the shoes, but he doesn't slip barefoot on the road at all - BUT a drawback of the boots I found - he does slide on the road in them. |
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| rose |
We don't event but I find my girl slips a lot more now she is barefoot, not a big problem for me as we don't jump.
On roads she has much better grip barefoot or in her old mac boots. Off road in wet muddy conditions she wears old mac on the front and bare behind usually and does not really slip much in front. I would not like to ride in wet muddy conditions on hills totally barefoot at any speed as I feel she would slip. I would say she slips more than the shod horses I am riding with in the same conditions. She is however quite close behind so I suspect this contributes to some backend slipping. |
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| babyjay |
Rose your experience is just what I am experiencing so I am not alone, thanks intresting.
Maybe the shape of feet make a difference? Jay has draft dinner plate type feet, maybe they have less purchase than small TB and possibly more concave feet? Brucea, we have no probs on the roads at all, best grip ever, it's the off road riding we're struggling with now it's wet 
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| pat |
Hi BabyJay,
Some horses slip and some don't although in reality most of them do. It is not whether they slip but how they cope with the slipping and how they learn to deal with it. (this applies to both barefooted and booted) My haflinger (with more draft feet) slipped badly and it took him a long time to learn to deal with it. He suceeeded with practice and learning as with all things. It was a case of taking it slowly and letting him practice. Letting him walk in hand down steep slippery grass and then letting him trot in hand on the same surface until he worked it out. Once he did he was fine but for him it took a long time. My arab was completely different, he went on a skiiing holiday over his first downhill slope but took it all on board and never had a problem again. OH says he never slips but, from riding behind him, this is untrue as he slips a lot but is so adept at dealing with it the rider never notices. I live on Dartmoor and often ride behind feral ponies when they stray onto the roads. I was behind a group who went aroung a corner on a muddy grass verge. They slid everywhere but had no problems. It was just their normal way of going on mud. I was scared they would go over. For them it was just another bit of mud. 
Your horse has just met his first mud. This is a new experience. Give him the chance to learn. It may take a while. Perhaps leave the hunting for a while. An ice rink describes how some horses find it to start with but once they learn then they are away and they don't forget. |
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| Yann |
We have lots of mud and wet grass to contend with once the weather breaks, and my horses definitely have better traction on poor going with shoes on as opposed to off. It's simple mechanics, there's half an inch of extra depth round the hoof wall to bite into the ground. My cob is one of the most footsure horses you'll find, shod or unshod, always has been, but it makes quite a difference to her.
They do seem to learn to rein themselves in after a while being barefoot though, not sure how much of that is extra 'feel' and how much simply adjustment and adapting to the new situation. Give me an unshod foot or a boot on the road any day though
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| stormybracken |
I wonder how much of this is the difference between "slipping" and "give"? Surely one of the drawbacks of shoes is that the foot can't function fully by flex and give, which helps reduce concussion further up the leg. Perhaps once you get to this level of performance the foot's function is different barefoot v. shod, and also the horse's and your own balance become more important.
As someone who has never done more than happy hacking, and managed to get a "navicular" neddy after two years of being unshod I quite accept I may be talking rubbish 
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| Nic |
Don't quite follow this - what was happening in February?
Thats not necessarily true - yes there is a difference in height if hooves are clean when you set off, but halfway across a muddy field, shod hooves are filled and packed in with mud - have a look at the shod horse in front of you next time you canter through some mud - and by that stage the extra traction has gone 
I've ridden lots of different barefoot horses over some pretty wet terrain and most deal with it exceptionally well, and slip no more (and no less, except on tarmac) than shod horses, so I don't believe bare hooves have inherently less traction. With the change in yours, there could be several factors. The increase in proprioception now compared to when shod could mean your horse is receiving more neural feedback about the ground underfoot, and is not able to compensate for this properly. If so, it should improve with time and mileage, and Pat's suggestions for getting him accustomed to the ground should help. If your horse is working harder or jumping higher now than previously, there may also be a fitness element - tired horses slip more, as do horses who aren't concentrating (youngsters goggling at everything can be a nightmare!). Flat feet can be more problematic, but even draft cross feet should have some concavity. What does your trimmer say about the feet? Is there an improved new angle of growth? If so the hooves should improve over the next few months. Finally, some horses learn to rely on studs/shoes for grip to compensate for a weakness elsewhere - I knew one horse with a stifle injury who slipped a lot when barefoot because of this. If so, you need advice from a bodyworker about strengthening the weak area or may need to go back to shoes. N |
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| brucea |
One thing that always worries me about shoes is in the winter time when there is snow on the ground. I see quite a number of horses in the yard tottering around on high heels and on occasion tripping because of them - that stuff hardens and packs like concrete. | ||||||||||
| dorisday |
We had 2 days of torrential rain last week which turned our bone-dry chalky tracks into ski slopes. As a result, I changed the usual routes of the treks I took out to avoid the worst, but still had to come down one gentle chalky trail with sparse grass patches. All the horses slipped terribly, even on the grassy bits, and the girlie I was on, Molly, sat down twice as her bum went under her. All horses shod. Took my own big barefoot cob boy down the same trail next day following more overnight rain - this is the previous shod stumbler that would crash to his knees every outing - and he didn't slip once. I am still amazed at the difference in stride and 'feel' between shod and barefoot, and it's still early days for me, with every day throwing up a new story. | ||||||||||
| Sez |
I was hacking out with The Tank (barefoot), Paddy (shod all round) and Jasper (shod on fronts).
We were all doing the same speed across the same ground. The Tank was green but reasonably well balanced and didn't slip. Paddy was highly schooled and didn't slip. Jasper's owner has never bothered with lessons or schooling and Jasper was all over the place, and he sliped with all four feet. Off all the miles The Tank and I have done and all terains, the only time he slipped (and fell ) was as a green four year old, on wet grass, in a spook, in canter. That was mostly my fault as he unbalanced me and I tipped him over with my weight  . He has never been shod - perhaps that makes a difference?
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| Yann |
Bare feet pack with mud too. I can only comment on what I feel under me traction wise, and that's my experience. I think this is one area where sometimes too many claims are made for barefoot, lots of things affect how an individual horse will go on slippery ground for better or worse. |
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| Nic |
...and with snow, but unlike with a shod horse, it tends to fly out every few strides, so hooves stay "cleaner" for want of a better description. We can all only go by our own experiences, and every horse will react differently, but as you say with your own horses, you struggle with grass and so they probably don't have terribly good caoncavity. It may be this that is causing you and the OP more slip problems when out of shoes. N |
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| babyjay |
Ah shoes came off and transition was gentle so never noticed or experienced the slipping. A big difference to clattering around XC courses now (til it rained)!
I can understand that and very willing to 'expose' her to help. I do wonder if I should ride differently, though I do allow her free rein, I do believe in letting them find their own balance than micro manage! but it's hard when the slips feel huge and we are about to go 'whopp-de-doo' 
Hmm no can't say we are suddenly doing more, not enough to tire her. She's reasonably fit.
Erm I don't have a trimmer, I do it myself and my pro-BF farrier occasionally checks balance. But I can put up pics of her feet if you like, they are well maintained and ok. They do have some concavity, more than when she was shod to be honest, which is great
Has anyone tried vasoline? Does that work to prevent or lessen packed feet? (of any material for that matter)
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| Yann |
One has good concavity, one doesn't. I know it's a bit OT, but the horse who still has shoes on (for the next 2 days ) came in with mud packed feet last night, and I couldn't help noticing that it was packed to wall level rather than shoe level, ie the tread was still there.
My experience of using vaseline (on a barefoot horse) in snow is that it only works for a little while and then washes off. |
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| cptrayes |
I have one horse now who is my hunter who never, by any practical definition, worked shod. He is/was a terrible slipper. Since I knew that I wanted him hunting this season, I have made a point of exposing him to really difficult ground, and letting go of his head to force him to either find his balance or fall over. He never did fall over, and has learnt really quickly. Today he was in full gallop when all four of his feet went out to the right. I really thought I was a goner, and for two more strides he struggled to stay upright on the slick grass, but managed it.
So what? Well a month ago he would have fallen flat on his face, so basically I am echoing peoples' opinions that for some of them it is a question of learning what to do. A large part of that is to let them make mistakes and learn for themselves how to correct them, but it certainly can be nerve-wracking to do that with the worst ones! C |
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| Nic |
I've never tried it, but then haven't really needed to, certainly in the snow - and we had a proper try-out with the snow in February: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2UBWg1afhs 
Agree with Caroline, too, that its critical for them to learn to balance. Felix has never had a problem slipping when jumping or hunting, in fact the only time he did was doing a dressage test on grass as a 5yr old. A year later, no problem - more balanced so didn't slip. N |
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| QAR |
Just to add my experience: P is well balanced and aware of where his feet are and very rarely slips. In the getting on for 2 years we've owned him we've had 3 slips that were sufficient to remain in my memory. 2 SJ on grass and 1 XC warmup. On all 3 ocassions he was excited, tearing around and not listening to me in the slightest. They were reasonable sized slips but they felt controlled and he was able to recover and rebalance (and then think better of tearing around and not listening ).
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| SueH |
We arent jumping as yet, but sheep grazed gallop runs Jake (TB small feet OK concavity not bad not brill) copes well without slipping generally.
He will tend to slip slightly if he's jerky/impulsive but he's become so adept after 2 years BF footwise I dont notice it as he rights himself so quickly. As work intensity goes up, I wonder if we will see more, until his proprioception develops further to catch up ?? Last weekend, asked for more in canter and he jerked forward into gallop from canter. He slipped on right hind but again I barely felt the slip it until he bucked in annoyance - clearly he was able to right himself and get his legs high in seconds. |
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| horsesfirst |
Little QH had boring life of arena work and hacking out mostly at walk before present owner acquired.
Used to slip a lot, mostly on corners when she seemed to forget her bum was connected to the front - but like other posters she did learn and is very confident and foot sure now. |
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| vic_s |
Mine has only been barefoot 6 months when we first had some heavy rain one of the other people on the yard spotted my horse doing a very good impression of ' Bambi on ice' as she cantered round a sharp corner and completely lost her balance!
Luckily she seems to have learnt from that and is much more sensible after its rained
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| Nic |
You reminded me that my old horse, Ghost had an appalling slip once, when he came round the corner of our concrete yard at a gallop (not sure why) and lost all 4 legs. He really bashed himself, and had lots of horrible scrapes and bruises, poor boy. He was shod at the time - this was years ago - but I've seen him do the same once on a very slippery corner of a field barefoot, again flat out and doing a handbrake turn
Then again he is a complete speed junkie... We don't let him behave like that under saddle - or try not to 
N |
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| brucea |
They don't need to be going fast to go splat...
I watched a young clydesdale excitedly trot up the field last winter - and then go down spectacularly face first in a huge jumble of legs. Tripped over a huge lump of frozen poo - his own . He was OK, but it was funny to watch, poor chap. |
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| cptrayes |
I'm always slipping up in piles of poo of my own making Bruce
C |
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| becnreps |
Have just watched that vid Nic, that looks so much fun! What a view you have from at the top ... and all that crisp white snow! Last winter when it snowed, I didnt ride for a few days as I avoided it like the plague. Most peoples horses didnt even come out of the stable. I'm astounded by the vid, so I can ride in snow?!! Thats amazing! |
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| brucea |
This is what we do in the snow
Pony does it great - bare feet really work! |
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| becnreps |
Aww wow!!
Thats so cute! He's like a reindeer!
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| Nic |
Yep, you certainly can - unless the snow is as deep as this of course: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Erv7XkJPTw8
Snow is the BEST when you have barefoot horses - turns every road into a gallop track - until the drifts pile too high, of course
The horses also found it v amusing when we turned them out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAHaF61PJ4Y
N |
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| babyjay |
Ace video of riding in the snow Nic! We just never get it like that here, too close to the coast
becnreps so are you wishing for snow now LOL That's a very cute pic brucea
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