| Archive for uknhcp.myfastforum.org Natural hoof care resource forums for all those interested in barefoot horses |
| becnreps |
Spavin?My farrier came out to trim Repsol on Thursday and I am a little more than concerned about what he said!I have noticed bruising on Repsols back feet for quite some time. However, he has gone 8 weeks (  ) this time without a trim. He's coped pretty well but when the farrier used that little block thingy to sand his hooves around the front a bit, three perfect identical lateral bruises showed up more clearly on the insides of each of his back feet. They are in the same place, above each other going up the hoof.
Now, the farrier said he is sure that he has some kind of back pain (I've had his back done by physio and she laughed that I thought he had back pain as he was fine). So his lumbar region of his back seems fine. Farrier also said he has bad conformation (which I dont think he does particularly) at the back as he stands very close and it could even be said that he is a little cow hocked. Him moving closely at the back doesnt show at all when he is ridden. So, farrier says that he has bruising there because he walks on the outside of his feet all the time and that is causing the inside to flare. (He then proceeded to tell me how all of that could be 'sorted' out with remedial shoeing...  )
He also has some swelling and some soft lumps around his hock (in the same place as bog spavin). So I am worried. Farrier said "oh it might be spavin" very off cuff. Repsol obviously has no lameness at all BUT when he is schooled, I have been constantly pushing him found that he is always very short behind and sometimes in front. I have been schooling him for a year and he is still not coping well with small circles and stepping 'underneath himself'. So, does anyone have any experience about spavin? And what about the bruising? Vet is coming out Monday, but just wondered if anyone could shine any light on the issue from a barefoot perspective as I dont really fancy being recommended remedial shoeing by the vet. Thanks and sorry its long! 
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| horsesfirst |
Bruises - Hoof wall or sole? As they are above each other sounds like wall. Could be a diet and/or trimming issue.
When you pick up the hoof and scan the solar surface from the back of the foot http://danceswithgrace.blogspot.com/2009/10/hooves-are-dynamic.html you can tell a lot about how the horse is being trimmed/is wearing its feet. My rule of thumb is to let the sole be my guide. http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2009/08/foot-wear.html This horse had very similar issues. Repeat bruising, uneven wear, massive bog spavins. If you look over the series of pictures you can see how a mix of very strict diet and frequent, adequate trimming have resolved the issues. Frequent trimming was critical for this girl. She still has huge bog spavins, but bog spavin is usually considered to more of a cosmetic issue. She now jumps a 2ft xc course happily even with the landings being stones. Judging your post overall and making a few assumptions I would personally be unhappy with the 'advice' and commentary from your farrier. |
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| Nic |
Farrier is probably right about the lateral first landing - a Dutch study found that 98% of horses land laterally first behind, and that neither trimming nor shoeing could influence that at all. In fact, the action of the hind legs makes it pretty tricky for horses to land any other way, so don't worry about that per se. This doesn't "cause" the medial wall to flare, but as it receives less wear, it will need trimming more. With many hardworking barefoot horses, it is never necessary to trim the lateral hind foot, but the medial aspect will need regular attention or will tend to crack as it gets too long. Bruising in the hoof wall on hind hooves is common in hard-working horses - any endurance horse, hunter or hard-working riding horse will occasionally bruise the hoof wall behind, but it shouldn't bother them at all. Talk to your vet, but its probably best to be clear about exactly what the problem is - sounds like the short striding behind when schooling is more of an issue than anything else, and that may well be conformational. I have a lovely horse here, who has a fairly straight hind leg, and as a result would find schooling on a tight circle very hard, but copes admirably with enormous amounts of hill work and fast work. He has a bog spavin too 
N |
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| becnreps |
I am unhappy with his advice, I am going to 'sack' him I think! When I said that I wasnt happy with the fact that I still couldnt go over stones comfortably, he said that I had too "high expectations from being barefoot" and I was "fussy". Also said "maybe barefoot isnt for him". I think the expectations thing is because he thinks that I should be overjoyed with the fact that he is sound on tarmac and flat surfaces because most horses "are instantly lame when they lose a shoe" ... I'm a bit worried about his views on feet to be honest. Think its time to get a trimmer! I originally thought it was a diet issue and have changed that somewhat. He's on the seaweed/linseed etc diet and has no sugar intake other than some grass. Not sure whether it should but the bruising doesn't tend to disappear when he's off grass either. I decided to call the vet as I haven't a clue about spavin and am quite novice when it comes to things like this! |
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| horsesfirst |
[quote="becnreps"]
Yay! and so are some vets When little QH vetted vet failed to notice the golf ball size bog spavins. (and a heap of other 'minor' flaws like being lame on all four feet.)
Then when seniorish partner of present vet practice saw the golf balls he declared 'throughpins' and we had to point out they were actually bog spavins. Horrified that a client would disagree he made a hasty consultation with his boss and yes they were bog spavins.
Its a pain, but you will find vet texts and the like (as usual) will be full of horror stories about bog spavins (same as going barefoot). But a decent horse vet (like my old recently retired one who has been round the block a few times and killed a few accidently in the process) should be able to reassure you. The whole horse world has changed IMHO for the worse so much in the past 20 years. When I was growing up any horse who had 'had a life' had bog spavins and windgalls plus lots else. Showing people worried but the rest of us got on with it. When young and fit I worked at a yard with 60 horses, very few were lame, and those that were were usually from an acute injury. Many had 'the works' in terms of lumps and bumps. Probably today at least some would be on box rest, many would have had '000s spent on expensive diagnostic treatments. But guess what - the bog spavins will still be there. And if you drain them they just come back. Nic is right you should get what you need to reassure yourself but be wise about it. Oh another horror story. I rescued a pony couple of years ago. Similarish scenario after rehab, before we moved it on we decided to get the hind leg explored just in case. Big mistake. Vet broke needle in joint and I had to do an emergency late night run to Cambridge for key hole surgery to get the needle out. That was scary. Oddly it was the same vet that didn't recognise the bog spavins that also broke the needle. Will I let him near a horse again .................. [NO - especially not with a needle in his hand] |
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| Nic |
So true - Charlie, the horse here who has the bog spavin does not have the cleanest legs in the world, to go with his straight hind leg, but he is fantastic Exmoor hunter, goes over anything and has done the highest mileage of any of our horses over the last 2 seasons. He's actually barefooted over 250 miles out hunting since August 
Handsome is as handsome does, and as I don't want a dressage horse, his straight hind leg is fine, and does mean that he is a superb all terrain vehicle. Ditto the (shod) hunt horses, who are all ex-racers and have some of the wonkiest legs you'd ever find. They'd never pass a 5-stage vetting yet go out sound mile after mile. N |
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| becnreps |
Oh dear, am starting to wonder whether it was a good idea or not getting the vets out!
I have got the 'boss' i.e. senior vet coming ... but I suppose it depends on his views on barefooting etc. I understand that bog spavins are just a cosmetic issue, am a little concerned about the not striding out business so I thought maybe it might be best to get some more advice. Maybe a trimmer would be able to help me with the bruising/issues with feet? Farrier seems to think that the reason that there is bruising and his feet flare is because he is a big horse (15.2 welshie so not really that big ...) and he has small feet. Theres another thing ... he says that my horsie has quite poor feet and they grow very slowly (didnt believe me when I told him that barefoot feet grow a new capsule every 4-6 months) because when he comes he doesnt have to 'cut' anything off, he just puts a roll on. (Bare in mind we do about 8 hours per week roadwork unbooted - I'm guessing thats why it looks like he doesnt grow any foot) Also, I wish I knew more about navicular as he didnt belive me that barefoot was best for that either ... 
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| horsesfirst |
Oh jammy!
I love these sorts of issues (big sudoku fan too). More complex the better. Not striding out could be a zillion things. Can't remember if you reported sole sensitivity or not. But natch a horse with sensitive tootsies isn't going to stride out. But equally could be - (I was going to do a list but I have to go out in a mo) basically pain more or less anywhere else. Think teeth, back, badly fitting saddle, rider interferance. The horses I did in the states were nearly all western saddle related. UK seems to be mostly sore backs related to feet. But all the feet have got better and then so have the backs. And its a very rare vet that can sort that lot out.
But as you are having a farrier trim - it could equally be a poorly trimmed foot. Get a second opinion on the trim/foot care thing from an experienced barefoot trimmer and then see where you go from there. Another story (also personal also true). Old mare had an issue - I forget which of the many. Vet suggested lots of expensive tests. I asked if that would change the treatment or outcome. He was honest enough to say 'no'. So we agreed that it wasn't sensible for me to take out a second mortgage to fund his education.
Similar story with friends pony. £3,500 quote for tests. Week later after restricted sugar intake and turn out in dirt paddock and it came sound. I so had to staple my big mouth shut
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| brucea |
I guess his hoof is straight on the lateral side, quite upright, and flared on the medial - just as Link's was! It looked horrendous when he had shoes on, pretty bad when he had shoes first off, and now you'll see it if you are really looking.
He has gone through the whole spavin thing - and yes schoolwork is hard for these horses. Now he has lumpy hocks, but is sound behind.. Lateral extensions imho did absolutely nothing for him and were just a liability becuase that edge caught more mud and stones and got pulled off. He's much better now he has been allowed to grow his own hoof shape. I keep that flare down when it is obvious, but on the whole don't interfere with it too much. |
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| Nic |
Obviously there is a difference between bone spavin (hock arthritis) and bog spavin. The latter is a soft tissue injury, a swelling of one of the tendons on the hock.
Caroline Trayes is a bit of an expert on barefoot horses with bone spavin, so have a look at her blog: www.smartiesdiary.blogspot.com as well
N |
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| horsesfirst |
You are right Nic bone and bog spavins very different thing. Farrier must be a numpty if he confused the two. | ||||
| cptrayes |
oooh yes we knows about bone spavin! 
Tetley was lame with it and grew feet that were stacked on the inside. I can show you a set of moulds I took of his lateral grooves and one is over TWICE the height of the other. Shoeing treatment for spavin ? - wedges on the inside. He'd built a set for himself 
That's why I would never shoe for bone spavin - they build the foot they need. Jazz has it now but has never been unsound in spite of producing the most astonishing size bony formations But it was related to a shortness in stride for the last year - but with a warmblood with an eeeeenormous stride I didn't notice a loss of three inches. And in both horses there has been some back tension. It's entirely possible your boy has a touch of bone spavin but if he is not lame, the treatment is to continue work to encourage the fusing which creates a permanent cure.
It sounds like you just have a horse who finds school work difficult, not as if you have any huge problem to worry about. C |
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| becnreps |
Thanks for all your replies everyone, its reassuring!
I think you could be right, but as I said, I'm fairly novice on these kinds of issues and I suppose you can understand that I did panic a bit when my farrier starts saying my horse has really bad conformation, walking on outside of feet and might need remedial shoeing ... ! I had decided that I was going to get a trimmer to come and see Repsol anyway but I had to have farrier again as I owed him some money!
I think that everyone is right about getting someone experienced to have a good look at his feet. Also, he is footsore but only on difficult, stony ground though. Tarmac and hard surfaces he is fine with. Maybe this could be enough to make him sore further up in front and in his hindquarters?
I'm not 100% sure if his feet are like this but they are quite upright and even though his heels aren't contracted, they're still not as good as the lovely hooves I see being posted on here! |
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