Jan
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Your thoughts please.Lami 2.5 yrs ago. 8 years old Thoroughbred cross (poss some Arab in there). Barefoot from then until March this year. Great looking feet but they could be periodically sore over stones even with boots and pads. Sore after some trims. Decided to try Epona shoes this Spring and Summer since diet changes alone weren't making her comfortable enough for long enough. Initially fantastic but last two shoeing with Eponas she was hopping lame and then footy for at least a week. Shoes off 3 weeks ago and she couldnt even stand on concrete - a first ever! Bloods and liver checked last week for metabolic, ulcers. Came back today negative. Vet is thinking either exceedingly thin soles, rotation or pedal osteitis. X rays happening on Tuesday. Not sure what he is planning once x rays have been done but mentioned a "sympathetic means of hoof management" and liaising with my farrier. No knowledge re pedal osteitis. Diet is soaked hay, no grass, fast fibre or speedibeet with Equus Health winter glow summer shine plus Metabolic horse's Slim and Sound. (Only been on the last two for two weeks.)
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cptrayes
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Sore after trims?  Who trims???
C
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horsesfirst
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Hi Jan - every sympathy for the challenges you are facing. Probably everyone on this forum has been there too at some point.
IMHO thin soles are are made not born. Long term sugar/starch overload and indifferent trimming are key in creating thin soles (for my horses anyhow). I've had beautiful feet made truly dreadful in a matter of weeks when a horse moved yards.
As your horse has had laminitis she is a prime candidate for going footy when overloaded with sugar or starch and it really doesn't take much. One horse I do goes lame on a handful of Happy Hoof.
Re the diet Equus Health winter glow summer shine is an expensive way of buying linseed et al which you could source much more cheaply as separates and then feed in proportions which suit your girl.
Suspicious of metabolic slim and sound because no proper analysis of minerals etc in it and it needs an additional mineral supplement.
It could be your mare's diet is short of magnesium and b vits et al.
Have you read Feet First - would be a good place to start. Good section on diet
From my own bitter personal experience I made the most progress when I educated myself both technically and practically, sacked the farrier and learnt to ignore 90% of what my vet said. And got very tough with 'helpful' people who wanted to feed sugar/starch or off the shelf supplements to my lot.
Before you get in touch with your farrier get in touch with a barefoot specialist trimmer who has trained with a recognised school and has experience of dealing with laminitics.
Good luck and well done you for taking the time and trouble to try and find the solution for your girl. If only every horse were so lucky.
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Jan
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Thanks for encouragement Horsefirst. Bought 'Feet First' two weeks ago - thats where I heard about Equus Health but I defintately agree with you re cheaper options re linseed, Mg, brewers yeast, garlic, mint etc - I was swung by having the correct levels and balance made up for me!
When barefoot she was trimmed by one of Jamie Jacksons high level trimmers/trainers in Scotland. When shod this year she was shod by a local guy I have a high regard for and who has a great rep. There are no UKNCP trimmers covering my area.
Her and her shetland pal are now back on my disused, resurfaced compacted sand surface. Soaked hay spread around to get them moving. Today I was so pleased to see that she was not at all footy over the concrete apron outside the stables without front boots on. We haven't had any pulses for over a week either. Need some strong ammunition for any drastic shoeing solutions that are put on my table as the only means to making my darling girl comfortable. I have a very good vet, who is very thorough and loves all his horses but he did say there is no easy way of growing a thicker sole....
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brucea
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Where are you based Jan?
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horsesfirst
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Jan (can you hear my slightly crazed cackling) that is exactly what my vet said. Was cynical to the point of rude. 
And I am having the last laugh. Soles now thick enough to allow barefoot xc jumping over a 2ft course where the take off and landings are road chippings. 
Even Gracie whose feet were almost convex at the start are now showing some depth of sole and this only took 2 months.
It can be hard though if a 'traditional' approach is taken.
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Jan
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Hi back, many thanks. Am determined to see this through. I've done so much research over the past few years and have a paddock in the makings with native grasses growing (now probably for the chop!) and pea gravel and membrane at the ready. The one thing I haven't prepped on is how to maintain her hooves myself which is scary and I'm looking at what dvds and books to get (very visual learner) but I need a hand holder to check every month. It makes sense to me that if she has very sensitive soles she needs frequent and very gentle trimming instead of too much every 6 weeks. She is the best girl in the world and I wish for our time of fun in endurance or runs over the Trossachs together. At the moment all I seem to do is worry, research and worry some more. We're based near Stirling in Scotland if anyone fancies a drive?....
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brucea
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Well - your vet is right - there is no easy way of growing a thicker sole...
It needs the right diet, plenty of stimulation and lots of patience. None of which are "easy". But much better chance of getting one if the sole getting stimulated rather than being lifted 1/4 inch off the ground!
If only it were "easy". 
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brucea
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Ah - Jan...clunk!
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stormybracken
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I've just ended my relationship with my vets because they would not consider dietary changes as a means to improving my horse's feet, and kept suggesting different shoeing which actually have created red herrings for his underlying condition(s). Once I got to the bottom of the sources of sugar and cereal in his diet his soles improved in six weeks, even with shoes on, and now the shoes are off we are able to tackle the other issues with his own natural balance and without sore feet getting in the way! Although he appeared barefoot sound for the previous 12 months my additions to his diet had gradually caused the deterioration of his hoof health (and behaviour). It took me 16 months in total to recognise the diet wasn't right, and that included wormers. I just have to find what works for him now  Less is definitely more, good luck.
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Julie
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I trim a horse that was shod at 18 months old because she had thin soles. Farrier spent the next 5 years tweaking the shoeing set up (pads etc) trying to keep her sound. She was given to my dressage trainer who decided to take the shoes off. Her old owner/breeder stays involved and bumped into old farrier who asked how the mare was getting on. When she told him she is barefoot, completely sound and winning dressage he said "if you weren't standing there telling me that I would never believe it".
I expect vets would have the same problem - just can't believe how much hooves can improve when the shoes come off.
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Jan
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If its not metabolic, why would she be sore in boots and pads over stones? My trimmer said her hinds were virtually perfect after two years of barefoot and her fronts were getting there. I'm really worried its pedal osteitis or the pedal bone has dropped. I'm rubbish at judging feet but her front soles look like they are dipping out around the frog (she used to have concavity there). When she was in Eponas this past 6 months we could never get the packing to stay in - it would always pop out of the hole in the shoe at the frog.
She is totally sound on soft but recently hasnt been happy to work at fast speeds on the woodfibre arena for any length of time.
Last few days she's been on my 'dry lot' to get her feet dry but not I'm kicking myself because although she was initially comfy to walk over the concrete and compacted sand, last night she had warm feet and a small pulse - think she should have had her boots on. I've always wondered why she could have cold feet and no pulses out on muddy paddock but get warmer feet and pulses again on the dry lot even with 12hr soaked hay. I wish the xrays were happening sooner but at the same time dreading the results. If bone has dropped whats the best way to help her?
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Nic
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| Quote: | | If its not metabolic, why would she be sore in boots and pads over stones? |
| Quote: | | I've always wondered why she could have cold feet and no pulses out on muddy paddock but get warmer feet and pulses again on the dry lot even with 12hr soaked hay. |
Horses which are footy on stones have sole sensitivity (obviously!) but there are lots of causes, not all of which are metabolic. Soles can be thin mechanically (over wear or aggressive trimming) - and that may be why she is less happy on a dry lot - or a horse with perfect looking feet can have sole sensitivity because of dietary excess/deficiency.
X-rays will tell you whether she has thin soles or rotation (but your trimmer should be able to tell you that from the external appearance of the hoof, although not quite as accurately as an X-ray) but won't tell you the cause.
If you and your vet suspect insulin resistance (which can flare up badly at this time of year) then a blood test is required.
N
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brucea
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Jan - I wonder if a really hard surface like concrete or compacted sand is right for her at the moment? If she is on concrete she will besupporting herself on her walls, and hopefully her frog if theee is enough frog there to provide support but there may not be. Maybe she needs to be on a conformant surface where the weight is also taken by the sole and bars?
have you got soem softer material she can stand on - even if it is just a small area of pea gravel?
Since Bob Bowker's visit tuned me in to it - it's become obvious to me that there are a lot of horses who can't stand still on concrete and are obviously uncomfortable - and sometimes in a very subtle way. They like a nervous tic.
When are your x-rays happening?
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Jan
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She can go into a stable. Normally I have the stable doors left open and they can wander in and out as they like. I'm only bringing them in off of muddy bare paddock because I was going for drying of the soft sole after having shoes pulled. Todays new plan of action is out on muddy field which seems to result in cold hooves and no pulses and into stable for 6 hours to dry out feet. Or she could be in stable for a couple of hours to dry out feet then plop boots on and open stable door for support but movement...? Or should she just stay put in field with wet feet because thats not main priority atm?? (so much for haven decided on a plan )
Bloods and liver checked last week - all "within normal parameters".
I think this was metabolic laminitis initially from clover laiden field in 2007 but now, with the diet she's had since and the on-going problems and blood results plus looking back at her history of not coping with linving on or work on hard ground, I'm suspecting mechanical (but who am I? - major banging head on brick wall going on atm).
FYI - I got Chrissie in 2006, took her shoes off in March 07 and she got lami in June 07.
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brucea
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I've put down a load of pea gravel in our paddock and one of the things that I did it for was to help the lami's soles stay a little more dry. It;s conformant - but water runs out of it and it stays kind of dry.
Unfortunately I am jost about to lose my paddock, stables and everything I've worked to build up at Tertowie. Farmer has taken the serious hump at something someone else has done (nothing to do wiht us at all!) and we have to move everything. So I am thrust back into looking for a new yard and new facilities at short notice AAARGGHHH!
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stormybracken
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Oh no! I feel for you, I'm on "borrowed" land and know how devastating it will be to start again. It takes time to establish where you can adapt the land and set it up to suit you and your horses, doesn't it?
I hope this is a blessing in disguise and you could find somewhere far more suitable for your guys. Good Luck!
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horsesfirst
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oh no Brucea - how awful for you. I can't help asking - what did they do?
Seems excessive to make you all move and not just the culprit. Cutting off one's nose et al
Poor you what a rotten time to have to move as well. 
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brucea
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Just an accumulation of stupid and petty things. But really for me this is just the push I needed. Unfortunately Bramble is a problem and I don't know how he will cope with moving into a new environment.
But one of the places I looked at belongs to someone who has experience of barefoot horses and was at my current livery yard - she said that her horse's hooves improved immensely when they moved to her place.
So it's really just the metaphorical straw - there are a number of other things I am unhappy about.
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brucea
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Well - it turns out that we are losing our stables as part of the yard manager's great plan to establish a cattery and make loads of money. Granted - she will make more out of that tthan she is making out of us - so fair enough I guess.
We have been offered other stable (1 not 3 as we currently have) but it is in a block that leaks badly and right next to the silage pit (rats, smell) and is very crowded already.
It's a shame, but we have a couple of nice yards that we are looking at - one of them private - I just hope we can keep the pony alive on them.
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horsesfirst
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Brucea - have jumped in the boat with you.
Finally decided to take the plunge and move my girl too. Her welfare comes first and I reached my tipping point on that score today.
I've been on the edge for ages so its probably just as well. I just hope the lifeboat I organised sometime ago still has room and a couple of paddles.....
Oh and its not just vets and farriers who can be slow to catch on - my Mum's GP has finally twigged my Mum has an eating disorder (she is 75 and has had it for at least 30 years, but probably much longer)
But the advice was priceless 'eat more cake' - Yeah like someone with anorexia is going to do that.
Sorry random rant over for now. Horoscope suggested this week was going to be difficult and judging by today it wasn't wrong 
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brucea
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There are a number of issues where we are. There are 45 horses now and the grazing and field set up is not up to that number - there are plenty of fields but some are in use for cows, some have no fencing and the fencing that is there is broken down and not repaired. There are more horses on the way too.
My horse was in a small herd of 5 and he got along well with them but now there are 12 in that field, the poo isn't breaking down quickly enough (of course the yard does not poo pick routinely). There aren't enough fields to rotate all of the horses who are out.
The winter field the geldings are going into has been used as a dumping area for all of the broken re-bar slats that came out of the cattle court and there are pieces of twisted metal lying around. And the fencing in that field has been wrecked by the cows! When I asked the YM abotu the plans for addressing this, I got a completely unsatisfactory answer (that's the polite version )
The YM seems to want to get rid of all the grass and box horses - would prefer to have them all in at night and have the yard on full livery.
But I am really fed up of the mess, the untidiness, the silage run off that goes right down the middle of the apron of the yard, the schools that flood, the poor fencing and so on. If I am honest about it my horses really aren't that happy now. The yard worked before the big expansion, but now it is just too busy.
What does concern me is that there are too many yard related injuries - with the fencing, the field shelter, the cavalier attitude to introducing new horses and old stuff lying around half buried in some of the fields. Last month there were 3 horses in with nasty yard related injuries. So far I've been lucky, but I think it is only a matter of time before there is a very serious one.
It's a shame. There are a few people and horses that I will miss so much and have been great friends for the last 7 years. One of them was in tears tonight when I told her we were going.
But nothing lasts forever, and it was a great yard for a while.
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horsesfirst
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Good luck with your move. Onwards and upwards! 
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